Article on de-gendering fashion

[steamman]

This is an interesting article;

https://discoapocalypse.co/de-gendering-fashion

The author is making the general point that binning the gender binary in fashion would benefit everyone. I agree, and it’s not about men in skirts per se (even though it’s a consequence), it’s about freedom for everyone to wear whatever they like.

This should be what the fashion industry works towards. So instead of asking when you enter a store whether you are male or female, it’s what type of body shape are you and what type of clothing would you like. And here is the thing: it makes massive business sense to ditch the binary. No more excluding a potential 50% of customers.

If you ask me, this needs to be the focus moving forward and challenging major retailers why they are still selling clothes based on 200 year old ideas. This can be done via social media and once one retailer decides to do it, the dam breaks and the entire skirt = woman perception collapses.

[robehickman]

This article is full of misinformation. The opening statement that fashion gendering was invented in the 19th century is utter tripe. Gendering clothing has existed since at least the late medieval period. Women's clothing started being made to tightly fit and show off the body, including low necklines. It then evolved through periods of moulding the torso via stays / corsets, and extremely large skirts, which are an extrapolation of the female form. Through this whole time period, male clothing looked different.

Here are a series of European male and female attire spanning about 1000 years:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jYDHFwC3zNc

"A women’s blouse turns into a fitted top with a collar. Much more informative"

If you know how to fit clothes to both male and female bodies, it is obvious this concept is not going to work. The proportions of those bodies are very different, obviously women have breasts, but are typically also more curvy, smaller, often thinner, and have wider hips and a narrower waist,

It would be possible to take a design concept and then actualise it to fit a range of male and female body shapes, at the expense of expanding the number of variations on garments that need to be manufactured.

However, there are and always will be things that will only look 'right' on either a man, or a woman, because the body proportions and shapes are just different.

[Uncle Al]

Great link, robehickman

Uncle Al

[Grok]

Not in any way an expert, but I believe that gendering clothing has been a tendency in non-Western cultures.

Thinking back to my youth, Western culture tried to differentiate gender appearance in several different ways. The starkest difference being the expectation that males always wear trousers, while females were expected to wear skirts/dresses. Other examples...nail polish was conventional for females, not for males...compared to males, females were allowed far greater diversity in jewelry...handbags were very gendered....

In the early 1960s hair length was gendered. Long hair for females, short hair for males. This particular distinction was challenged, and eventually there came a measure of tolerance for this particular issue.

[robehickman]

Not in any way an expert, but I believe that gendering clothing has been a tendency in non-Western cultures.

Thinking back to my youth, Western culture tried to differentiate gender appearance in several different ways. The starkest difference being the expectation that males always wear trousers, while females were expected to wear skirts/dresses. Other examples...nail polish was conventional for females, not for males...compared to males, females were allowed far greater diversity in jewelry...handbags were very gendered....

In the early 1960s hair length was gendered. Long hair for females, short hair for males. This particular distinction was challenged, and eventually there came a measure of tolerance for this particular issue.

Clothing gender (in the sense of garments cut to accentuate body shape) has probably existed in all cultures where any kind of fitted clothing exists. Even in cultures where draped / wrapped garments (things made from wrapping a rectangle of cloth around the body and fixing it somehow) were the norm, there is still evidence that this was done differently for men and women.

This is probably unavoidable because males / females are not shaped the same, and until very recently performed different societal roles.

The extreme gender-separation that you note is a product of the 19th century as far as I'm aware, the Victorians were very 'everything must be exactly like this'. Men having short hear I believe was due to the military wanting to prevent lice. However if you look at fashion history, hair length fashion has varied a lot over time.

There is very little awareness of fashion history in the general public, which is probably also an aspect of why western male fashion has got so stuck.

[AnonUser30]

As much as I love the idea of de-gendering of clothing, I don't foresee that becoming a mainstream idea anytime soon. In addition to the anatomical concerns Robert brings up, So much of our unspoken cultural rules and customs are tied up in gender and presentation. By and large, I think people prefer having men and women being really easy to differentiate visually. As someone who is interested in gender bending, I'm aware that at the very least, Im often causing confusion for those around me. I think there's plenty of room in our culture for people who don't fit the norm, but you'll have to get used to being the odd one out. Now, that's not to say skirts specifically can't be reclaimed by men, but that just means other means of differentiation will fill in.

[Grok]

Regarding the extreme, it is clear that the stark trousers versus skirts divide is particular to the West.

We could have a future where both trousers and skirts-as very general categories of clothing-could be accessible to both men and women. But with distinctions due to different body shapes.

[Grok]

I think there's plenty of room in our culture for people who don't fit the norm, but you'll have to get used to being the odd one out.

"...people who don't fit the norm..." Such people may be find a superficial tolerance for their presence. (And don't expect success in romantic relationships). Without their strange choices being accepted as mainstream.

At best, such a person may have a status as an eccentric; not harassed or bothered for their choices, but not emulated either.

[crfriend]

"...people who don't fit the norm..." Such people may be find a superficial tolerance for their presence. (And don't expect success in romantic relationships). Without their strange choices being accepted as mainstream.

At best, such a person may have a status as an eccentric; not harassed or bothered for their choices, but not emulated either.

A decade ago, this was, indeed, the case. Success at romance would be highly limited -- if even possible -- and the individual would have been considered "eccentric" at best. Now that we're descending into a new Dark Age, even that grudging acceptance is waning very quickly from the public sphere and attitudes are very strongly adopting a hyper-right-wing fascist tendency.

I've actually pretty much given up on dressing the part of the peacock as I was starting to get a fair amount of pushback about it -- even from friends (who should have known better). I worry now about getting picked up off the street for being a perceived threat and disappeared off into some (other) third-world hole. It's just not worth it any longer. So, it's back into "protective colouration" for this old boy and trying not to stick out lest I get hassled about it. I figure that societally we've probably regressed about 60 - 70 years in the past decade, and I'm not happy about it. However, I am powerless to do anything about it.

[Grok]

I recall an article I posted about awhile back. Regarding an official attempt at pushback, or regression. An attempt in the Arkansas legislature to control hair length by law.

A member once posted that we will first learn to wear skirted rigs in the home. If we see a major attempt at repression, home may become a sanctuary where MIS survives. Probably a good reason to learn how to sew.

[Grok]

even that grudging acceptance is waning very quickly from the public sphere

Grudging acceptance? Or just a very superficial tolerance, until the laws can be switched to repression?

[Grok]

Have given some thought about how an era of repression might look like.

I don't think it would look much like the 1950s, except for men being almost entirely in trousers.

Because in the 1960s we started to see a long term trend towards informality, leading to a pronounced trend towards grunge. If anything, making mens clothing seem even duller/drabber than during the 1950s.

Trousers have become conventional for women, so I don't see that being reversed. In addition, women have now effectively had their own Great Renunciation, leading them towards a similar drab appearance.

Conceivably there could be an attempt at a more formal appearance at work or school, via dress codes. But overall, I don't expect to see todays dreary excuse for fashion being rapidly changed by law. That would mean legislating against a lack of something.

[Barleymower]

When men experience female gendered clothes they often say they experience a sense of euphoria. Once experinced it is nigh on impossible to give up, They also experience a sense of freedom and calm. All good things. Why would you abandon such a feeling? Women on the other hand are born into it, it is everyday normality. They experince the same sense of freedom and calm when they wear male gendered clothing.

There isn't much to get over. Everyone would be much happier for it. There's nothing wrong with feeling happy. Life is difficult enough without denying yourself some simple pleasures.

Everytime we say "it won't happen anytime soon" we push that day a little further away. Focusing on positive thoughts and goals can lead to positive outcomes ie what you think about you bring about.

[steamman]

Not in any way an expert, but I believe that gendering clothing has been a tendency in non-Western cultures.

Thinking back to my youth, Western culture tried to differentiate gender appearance in several different ways. The starkest difference being the expectation that males always wear trousers, while females were expected to wear skirts/dresses. Other examples...nail polish was conventional for females, not for males...compared to males, females were allowed far greater diversity in jewelry...handbags were very gendered....

In the early 1960s hair length was gendered. Long hair for females, short hair for males. This particular distinction was challenged, and eventually there came a measure of tolerance for this particular issue.

Clothing gender (in the sense of garments cut to accentuate body shape) has probably existed in all cultures where any kind of fitted clothing exists. Even in cultures where draped / wrapped garments (things made from wrapping a rectangle of cloth around the body and fixing it somehow) were the norm, there is still evidence that this was done differently for men and women.

This is probably unavoidable because males / females are not shaped the same, and until very recently performed different societal roles.

The extreme gender-separation that you note is a product of the 19th century as far as I'm aware, the Victorians were very 'everything must be exactly like this'. Men having short hear I believe was due to the military wanting to prevent lice. However if you look at fashion history, hair length fashion has varied a lot over time.

There is very little awareness of fashion history in the general public, which is probably also an aspect of why western male fashion has got so stuck.

This idea that men and women are different body shapes is not really true. Yes, women classically have the “hourglass” body shape, but the reality? Women come in all different shapes and sizes. There is even variations within men as well. The simple truth is that clothes should be sold by body shape and type, not gender. By doing this, the fashion industry would make more money by reducing returns.

It’s also entirely true that gender norms are dying. Why? Generation Z , Alpha and to an extent millennials completely ignore them. When that happens, the system collapses. We are in a very interesting period right now, and the degendering of fashion would be in everyone’s interests.

[crfriend]

This idea that men and women are different body shapes is not really true. Yes, women classically have the “hourglass” body shape, but the reality? Women come in all different shapes and sizes. There is even variations within men as well. The simple truth is that clothes should be sold by body shape and type, not gender. By doing this, the fashion industry would make more money by reducing returns.

Well, it used to be, and it remains a comforting thought to some, but the reality in the modern world is that women come in 2 "shapes", the "Peloton Princess" and the "amorphous blob" with nothing really in between. The former is unlikely to be fertile, and the latter is generally undesirable aesthetically pretty much removing both from the breeding pool (and who in their right mind would bring a child into this modern world anyway?).

It’s also entirely true that gender norms are dying. Why? Generation Z , Alpha and to an extent millennials completely ignore them. When that happens, the system collapses. We are in a very interesting period right now, and the degendering of fashion would be in everyone’s interests.

Has the "gender binary" collapsed? Offhand, I'd say "No", and that rather the women are now acting like ersatz men by aping that very bad parody of masculinity, "machismo" (and failing at it). It's not that the binary has collapsed, it's that everybody is on one side of it now, and that's causing problems -- including some of the "Father Knows Best" repressive idiocy we're seeing now.

I quit the dating scene back when I came to the astonishing conclusion that I was insufficiently homosexual to be attracted to the tattoo-festooned, pierced, swears like a sailor modern "woman". So I gave up on it and have simply accepted that the rest of my life will be a solo flight until it intersects with terrain (whether controlled or uncontrolled remains to be seen).