MOTIVATIONS

[Midas]

There is another category to consider- the tosser, as in don’t give a toss (what anyone thinks).

[Sepchugang]

Strangely enough I didn’t see Stu’s initial posting as an attempt to put MIS in boxes, in fact the exact opposite. The vast majority of Western men are trapped in the small box which is at the very centre of FranTastic444’s x,y chart. Society’s expectation is that men wear drab suits, trousers (pants) or shorts, possibly ties too and that failure to conform runs the danger of being labelled as a bit weird, gay, a cross-dresser or trans etc. (Most gay men I know (including those married to another man or a woman) in fact still remain firmly in this box, perhaps with a bit more colour and fashion sense, but are not MIS). Girls and women have the luxury of also having joined this box and are able to wear jeans/shorts/shirts etc. without adverse comments and yet can also continue to wear skirts or dresses with no condemnation by society. As I understood Stu’s initial post, MIS have broken out of this box and Stu was suggesting ways to explore our rationale for doing so. Most cafe members seem to have done it due to a combination of more comfortable and practical clothing and not worrying too much what others think and a belief that anyone should be able to wear what they want irrespective of their gender. Some do explore their feminine side more than others but even so clearly still identify as a man by having a beard or a bass voice etc. My ultimate dream is that men, should have the same freedom as women in society to wear whatever they choose and that whilst it is perhaps still a long way from being realised, hopefully the more of us that break away from the traditional male box, for whatever reasons, the sooner it will come about.
P.S. My best wishes too Stu for your replacement pacemaker - I hope it all goes well.

[JohnH]

I think men's inhibitions in what they wear is mostly in their heads. I have NEVER been harrased for wearing dresses, lipstick, heels, etc. At church during coffee hour I interact with the other men while being dolled up.
I flew up to Chicago Midway from the DFW airport and back wearing dresses to attend my mother's funeral in Holland, Michigan. I wore conventional mens clothing for visitation and the service, but wore dresses the rest of the time.

John

[JeffB1959]

I think men's inhibitions in what they wear is mostly in their heads. I have NEVER been harrased for wearing dresses, lipstick, heels, etc. At church during coffee hour I interact with the other men while being dolled up.

John

I couldn't agree more. Just like you, I've never been hassled when out and about, heck, more often than not, I've been complimented on my appearance. We create our own fears which we succumb to for no good reason.

[Modoc]

Hmm.. I'm probably definitely not a "lipstick" as the idea of being something other than I am has never been something that I dwelled on. I'd be a liar if I said I never wondered what it would be like because I always thought there was more to the difference than just the physical characteristics. Having grown up with sisters and raised daughters, I am perpetually aware of how life is different for females and for no rational reason. The fancy clothes that my sisters wore had to be protected to the point of limiting "fun" activities. However, except for my church clothes, there were few, if any, restrictions on us boys' activities. I didn't envy girls but rather pitied them at times for this and a whole host of other things that had nothing to do with clothes.
Yet still, I became a teenager and young adult in a time and culture where male flamboyance wasn't so frowned upon. I was able to wear loose-sleeved fancy shirts, fringed vests, pants, big hair, short shirts, crop tees, 3-inch platforms, and the list goes on, and I never thought of being labeled as gay. In fact, I had lots of female company (read relationships) whose attire wasn't that much different except for dresses and skirts.
I grew up and conformed. No particular date or time comes to mind, but one day, I looked up and realized I looked like every other male of my generation in how I dressed.
I don't know when I decided to try skirts, dresses, and leggings. Actually, leggings came first. I had many reservations (read fear) at first, but I am now comfortably wearing skirts and dresses about 90% of the time. A major catalyst in my decision to be more public was meeting my daughter for a casual lunch one day, and she looked at me and smiled and said, "I see you're still in uniform." The next time we met for a ballet show, I was wearing a calf length wool pleated skirt under a white shirt jacket and tie. She said "It's about time".
What do our loved ones know about us that we don't?

[Seb]

A major catalyst in my decision to be more public was meeting my daughter for a casual lunch one day, and she looked at me and smiled and said, "I see you're still in uniform." The next time we met for a ballet show, I was wearing a calf length wool pleated skirt under a white shirt jacket and tie. She said "It's about time".
What do our loved ones know about us that we don't?

Ah, this brought a big smile to my face reading!

[Grok]

[*]Femboy = 2. This is a tricky one for me. There was a period around puberty where I so wanted to be a girl. But probably not a girl for life - just for a while to check it out.

For my case, Femboy = 3. Was never interested in the Trans thing-hormones and surgery. But if a true metamorphosis was possible (with the wave of a magic wand?), and one could change back, I would have been interested in a little gender tourism.

Functionally, however, I have been Screwdriver. How did I end up that way? Starts with my first purchase. One day I was looking at the Utilikilt web site. The company had a shop just a short drive away. It was open. I thought to myself, stop thinking about it, stop talking about it, just do it. So I did. Got a black Mocker variant. Developed a couple preferences from that garment-a desire for a generally practical garment; a desire for good pockets. These acquired preferences have influenced my purchases since.

[Grok]

Intellectually, I focused on Screwdriver. I could make arguments for mainstream society adopting MIS. (And I am tired of making such arguments, now).

Tatoo, and the Lipsticks...thats all about dressing to please yourself.

[Grok]

Was a white male baby in 1956. Once I grew up, it turned out that I had these characteristics:

1. Male gender identity.

2. Sexual orientation-towards women.

3. Romantic orientation-towards women.

An old friend once commented that my personality is midway between the Masculine and Feminine poles of the Gender Binary. That would seem to make me an Androgyne, except that I do have a male gender identity.

Two different definitions for androgyny:

1. The quality or state of not being specifically feminine or masculine.

2. The combination of feminine and masculine characteristics.

I would say that 70% of my personality is neither specifically masculine or feminine. If I am wearing trousers, I think that I come across as being so bland that I am under the radar. I don't set off any alarms.

The other 30% encompasses the second definition. My interests, for example, have been broad, diverse, changeable. Which can include interests that are deemed masculine or feminine.

[Grok]

A couple definitions for Gender Expression:

1. Gender expression is the outward manifestation of one's gender identity.

2. Gender expression is the way a person externally presents their gender through behaviors, clothing, hairstyles, mannerisms, interests, voice.

So, my gender identity is male. My gender expression, however, would include a significant component of Janegirl, though this has been overwhelmingly repressed through near the entirety of my life.

When I was a kid I could sense a trap in the gender role assigned to me. But I kept my mouth shut.

[Grok]

Have to consider the cards one have been dealt by life. Have to consider trade offs...compromises.

Sometimes, you have a card that you can't (realistically) play. Trying will certainly lead to failure, to negative consequences. For me, that card is the feminine card.

I have picked one, and only one, form of nonconformity, and hope that will prove constructive.

Sometimes, you have a card that might have been played, but realistically it is too late. For example, during young adulthood there was the possibility of marriage and family. I was getting a bit old for that twenty years ago.

[crfriend]

This does not require or warrant attempts at advanced psychoanalysis to come to an answer. Here we can use Occam's Razor quite handily to come up with, "Because I like it -- and it hurts precisely nobody." and get pretty damned close.

Admittedly, that argument won't pacify the zealot or the ignoramus, but will make the intelligent pause for a bit of thought on the matter -- and that's all we can hope for. Unfortunately, the vast bulk of the herd of "humanity" is in the first two camps, and that makes it hopeless. You can't fix stupid. All that can be done is to make stupid hurt -- and we're not allowed to do that.

[Barleymower]

Grok, I read your posts with interest. They strike a cord with my own experience.
I have said the same myself, I have the girl card in my hand. I can't play it and I can't throw it away. She has caused me no end of problems over the years (a big bout of depression between 93 and 05). In some ways I cherish her and others I would gladly get give her the boot. I think if I had been attracted to men it might have been easier.
If i had to self diagnose, i think because of my parents divorce when I was 2, i was mostly left with my sister, nan, auntie and sometimes my mum. I think there was very little male presence in my life and I imprinted on my Nan who I lived with.

[Myopic Bookworm]

Some comments chime with me too. In my 20s, if had had the slightest chance of passing, I might have experimented with cross-dressing, but it wasn't a credible option. (I'm too introverted and too bad an actor to manage the drama of drag.) Currently I feel too old and too married to claim the label of non-binary, so I identify as male but gender-nonconforming.

[Grok]

Currently I feel too old and too married to claim the label of non-binary, so I identify as male but gender-nonconforming.

Yes, if I were to summarize I would say that I am male but gender-nonconforming.

I think some members-me included-would fit into the Femboy/Janegirl category. I can see why a few of the newer members may have viewed skirt cafe as a forum for such, not realizing that there are members who do not fit that category.

If skirts were to become normalized for men, I would still wear them because of the (physical) comfort.