What women really think

[Barleymower]

The question came up on mumsnet. Here is summary of what women think:
1. social conditioning
2. lower social status
3 taboo
4 indication that he is either gay or a sexual pervert/predator
5 it's the tights that put most men off (my dad commented on tights)
6 They are stupid, impractical garments, which are easily replaced with trousers, jeans or shorts
7 a kilt is a skirt
8 Can't women have something that's just theirs?
9 There’s a hell of a lot of difference between a man wearing a kilt and this...
10 men don’t have the legs for it
11 Too few pockets
12 with stuff hanging between their legs got the trousers and the one without got the skirt. You'd think things would be more comfy the other way round
13 Women can have something that's 'just theirs', as long as men can too.
14 Young women must have given up on pockets completely, or leggings wouldn't have conquered the world.
15 Why would any decent man want to wear something that misogynist men’s rights activists like so much?
16 If they wanted to wear them they would.
17 Women would in large numbers would not be keen
18 There is something really attractive about someone choosing an unusual piece of clothing and just owning it as their own.
19 wearing a skirt would possibly open them up to ridicule. Most people don’t want to be picked on, and want to fit in with their peers.
20 because there's still a huge amount of shame in men dressing/acting like women
21 people overestimate the popularity of skirts/dresses amongst women, let alone men.
22 Most men also don't feel the need to push the envelope in terms of spending a bunch of time trying to find dresses or skirts that do fit them.
23 a dress/ skirt on a man is it is seen as looking silly
24 everybody is brainwashed by the patriarchy to want to keep them different.
25 boys moved into trousers when they were older - as if women remained children
26 Beckham got the piss ripped massively for that though. Esp with blokes. They police each other so hard.
27 Imagine the freedom their balls would have in a skirt. It would be like going braless. Au natural. Free Willy!!!

Women on the whole are in favour.

[TSH]

Normally, I'd say the only legitimate response would be, "Who gives a damn? Most people don't actually care about gender equality, let alone sartorial freedom for both women AND men. Women in pants had their moment, and it paid off, so why would they bother championing for the opposite sex that put them in an oppressed position across many different cultures for eons?" Then I realized that this was a list of the things people have said in that dumpster fire of a website, and quite a few of them prompted me to make quite a few responses in return.

4.) This is only the fourth talking point and we're already off to an especially inane start. The fact that we aren't past this homophobic and derogatory stage is not surprising, but I still can't help being baffled by the sheer idiocy of people who think this way. No. Gay men prefer MASCULINE men. Gay men are LESS likely to be effeminate crossdressers than heterosexual men (which would likely include, though not exclusively, men in skirts). Gay men AREN'T the stereotypical Camp Gay types you only know of from entertainment because you've never bothered to interact with a gay man in your life. I hope the dumbass who made that "sexual pervert/predator" remark got lambasted to hell and back in that mumsnet thread. Otherwise, I'll have to do so myself (if someone can provide a link, that is). "Seriously, sexual perverts and predators are predominately men who dress conventionally. Why the hell would they wear something that'd make them stand out, like a skirt? Think before you post, you brain-dead yutz" is something I'll use next time see some asshole make this dumb moon logic.

5.) You don't necessarily need to wear tights underneath skirts, though. And I never understood the appeal, anyway.

6.) When it's over 37°C (over 100°F), skirts are the best, most sensible garments you can wear in the heat. What a doofus take. Each garment can be worn, and IS designed for separate practical reasons. The fact that one isn't ideally practical for certain circumstances doesn't justify writing it off entirely — that's ridiculous. Only simpletons think like this.

8.) I had a pretty witty response to this, but Person #13 pretty much already said it for me. Sure. Let only men wear trousers and let only women wear skirts (and JUST skirts), and everyone has something of their own. You're a ****ing moron, Person #8.

9.) Who the hell cares? Kilts ARE still skirts; learn how categorization works and get over it. Men have worn other skirts in the past, so this "hell of a lot of difference" isn't any more different than wearing shorts or pants.

10.) This "men don't have the 'legs' for it" bit is priceless. Whenever dumbasses like this idiot say this, it's a glaring admission that they, themselves, wouldn't be able to pull it off, and they're scared a bloke would actually look better in a skirt than they would — they might find that fellow… *gasp* good-looking. It also assumes that all skirts are short when they come in all shapes and sizes. Get a better script, you halfwit. No one cares about your stupid opinion. Not a lot of women have the "legs" for it, either, but there's no reason why people shouldn't be able to wear whatever the **** makes them comfortable. That's what should matter, and it bothers me that this VERY SIMPLE ACKNOWLEDGEMENT just flies over the empty-headed craniums of the masses. Damn, people suck so hard.

11.) Cargo skirts exist. Utilikilts (kilts, which, as we have already established, ARE skirts) exist. Sporty skirts exist and often come with pockets. Pockets aren't an issue.

16.) The problem here is the transparent stigma of men appearing remotely feminine (as Persons #19, #20, #24 wisely points out). It's not just a simple, "they can if they want to". People aren't ready to accept this subversion, which is why MiS still hasn't caught on yet like WiP has.

That's pretty much all I have to respond to. There is one more talking point that I felt like covering, and it involves men not wanting to spend much time trying to find dresses/skirts in appropriate sizes, but dresses and skirts for men aren't exactly in high demand, so the entire point is moot. The envelope that should be pushed here is gender freedom in clothing above all else.

Women on the whole are in favour.

The opposition from the opposite sex, though, is still dishearteningly huge. Women, especially ones living in more progressive regions of the world who don't treat women like property, take this still relatively recent liberty when it comes to gender expression through the various clothing styles that society has deemed "acceptable", for granted. Makes it hard for them to empathize with our cause, and that's disappointing, really.

[Grok]

Number 8. Awhile back, I looked at a woman's blog which asked this question. The garments implied-dresses.

But considering how women have appropriated almost everything from our side of the aisle, this is another double standard.

Really no good justification for cutting men off from a general category of garment as broad as skirts.

[Barleymower]

TSH i know there a lot of negativity in the list. From my perspective it was not intended as a women bashing opportunity.
Persoally I hold no malice towards their attitude becuase it is born out of not understanding.
In reply:
4. Pre skirts I would have said the same, despite my own longings. I'm not gay so couldn't understand my own feelings. So I buried it deep and did my best to fit in. Now I try to engage people however the taboo is heavily enforced and it difficult to get people to talk about it.
5. I rarely wear tights but i know the feeling when wind brushes through tights and a skirt. The tightness on my nether regions puts me off.
6. My sister was given a skirt and cowboy boots for Christmas. I was given a skateboard. She was so sad. No wonder some women rebel against skirts.
8. Can women have something that is just theirs? No they can't! Neither can men, it's called equality.
9. This is huge and there's no answer for it yet in my mind at least. A manly kilt is acceptable and even a skirted manly man. There is a massive line in the sand though when men appropriate female sexuality and call it male sexuality. Women can be manly to a certain extent but critical eyes will fall on her male partner rather than her.
10. Men absolutely do have the legs for it. The fact that men have great legs that look good in a skirt will eventually win the day.
11. When men eventually claim the skirt back, they will be made with pockets. This good for men and women. Although i use my pockets extensively, I know they spoil the line of clothes.
16. The frosty reception has more to do with it than not being bothered.

It takes courage to be a man in a skirt.

[Barleymower]

Number 8. Awhile back, I looked at a woman's blog which asked this question. The garments implied-dresses.

But considering how women have appropriated almost everything from our side of the aisle, this is another double standard.

Really no good justification for cutting men off from a general category of garment as broad as skirts.

I totally agree Grok. Eventually this double standard will work in our favour.

[denimini]

I propose that if anyone posted "What men really think" they might be surprised when alerted to the omission of men like us, and many of us would be annoyed by the gross generalisations.
I do agree that many women of a particular demographic would say those things .............. and what they think would only be known to themselves.

[Barleymower]

What people post does not match their actions. Mumsnet is a bit of sesspool and posters will post what they think will be accepted by the group. Nobody wants a public dressing down.

[TSH]

TSH i know there a lot of negativity in the list. From my perspective it was not intended as a women bashing opportunity.
Persoally I hold no malice towards their attitude becuase it is born out of not understanding.

That's still not an excuse to project one's own ignorance, though. I mean, we're supposedly taught from an early age to reserve our judgement of someone until we spend some time getting to know that person. This narrow-minded, dull-witted attitude is something I can't look past or forgive that easily, especially since people are supposed to be more progressive and accepting of other people than they were yesteryear, but it's the same ol' ****, again and again. Makes me wonder what's there to be hopeful for.

What people post does not match their actions. Mumsnet is a bit of sesspool and posters will post what they think will be accepted by the group. Nobody wants a public dressing down.

While I realize that some people make troll accounts just to take the piss, these reactions aren't far off from how people in real life view men in skirts. That people groupthink and just parrot what other people say on the Internet just doesn't make any sense. What made the Internet appealing (or scary to certain orthodox folk) in the first place was the concept of being exposed to varying different worldviews and ideals (including ones contrasting your own), and potentially having your own perspective influenced as a direct result. It was a gateway to express your own beliefs in a manner you probably couldn't where you lived. Some dunderheads might call me a hypocrite after the previous post I made on this thread, but these were responses to people basically saying a group of people shouldn't wear something because it makes them "uncomfortable". That's knuckle-dragging entitlement, not a worldview. Of course no one wants to reprimanded, but when you blatantly post problematic, generalizing rhetoric, people should at least call you out for it.

[Modoc]

Meh, maybe nice to know or a good conversation piece, but I stopped caring a long time ago.

[mr seamstress]

I can tell you who are some of these morons are. Some of these morons have a title as a professor. I know because I was just talking to one who was teaching his students how to drive a tractor and and trailer (18 wheeler). This pedicular moron was ignorant to the fact mothers put dresses on boys. Not only that he thought it didn't happen in this state. He saw it that this happen in northern states, just not southern states. He seems to think he wore nothing but boy clothes since his birth.
This moron question my sexuality, whether I was a trans or not. This person is suppose to be professional. He has to be questioning his students sexuality as well.
These morons are being taught by other morons with a college degree.

I receive slur name calling from women as well from men. Yea they notice. The number of times women taken my picture is far greater than number of my toes and fingers. They feel I shouldn't have the right to walk on the streets. They love to force me out of this community.

I have gotten some positive remarks as well.

[jamie001]

I can tell you who are some of these morons are. Some of these morons have a title as a professor. I know because I was just talking to one who was teaching his students how to drive a tractor and and trailer (18 wheeler). This pedicular moron was ignorant to the fact mothers put dresses on boys. Not only that he thought it didn't happen in this state. He saw it that this happen in northern states, just not southern states. He seems to think he wore nothing but boy clothes since his birth.
This moron question my sexuality, whether I was a trans or not. This person is suppose to be professional. He has to be questioning his students sexuality as well.
These morons are being taught by other morons with a college degree.

I receive slur name calling from women as well from men. Yea they notice. The number of times women taken my picture is far greater than number of my toes and fingers. They feel I shouldn't have the right to walk on the streets. They love to force me out of this community.

I have gotten some positive remarks as well.

Wow! It sounds like you really have a hard time! Where do you live? Are you in the Southern USA or Bible Belt?

[mr seamstress]

Wow! It sounds like you really have a hard time! Where do you live? Are you in the Southern USA or Bible Belt?

Bible Belt.

They can't troll me online since I don't do Facebook, TikTok, or other social platforms, since I don't bother with these platforms.

UPDATE:
Since I posted this, I had teenager steal a sign from my hands that says Equal rights for men in dresses & skirts. This community is filled with dumb morons.

[Barleymower]

This narrow-minded, dull-witted attitude is something I can't look past or forgive that easily, especially since people are supposed to be more progressive and accepting of other people than they were yesteryear, but it's the same ol' ****, again and again. Makes me wonder what's there to be hopeful for...
....these reactions aren't far off from how people in real life view men in skirts.

TSH i think that being "narrow-minded, dull-witted" is out of peoples control to some extent. It doesn't help ourselves either to be too angry. The sadness and frustration gnaws at us if left unresolved. So i let it go, talk about here, talk to them about it so they might change or if necessary confront them. Arty (Dr fishnets) did this recently when he met his aunt in the street.

....these reactions aren't far off from how people in real life view men in skirts.

That's why I posted "what women really think". I didn't post it to get peoples backs up, quite the opposite. Rather than think the worst I wanted to know what they are saying. My conclusion was that most of the replies were in favour of fashion freedom for men.

[crfriend]

To some of the naysayers, especially those of the "Mumsnet" derivative -- that place is a cesspit, pure and simple.

I've been offline for a few days (in hospital, unfortunately, landing there to assorted problems leading to a blood analysis report that scared my new primary care doctor), but in that week got lots of compliments, not on my skirt (I arrived in male drab), but for my nail varnish. Several conversations flowed from those, ranging from the simple, "That looks fabulous", to a rather interesting discussion with an EMT which concerned the behaviour of pulse-oximeters and their interactions with nail-varnish and how different types of varnish (and even different colours) interact with the machines in different ways.

Several involved my choice of colours -- mostly lilac (a nice soft gentle shade), and middle fingers of bright green and vivid red (for the port/starboard running lights on aircraft and ships (including spaceships)) which makes for interesting yet layman-simple stuff that can be observed on any dark night.

The interesting thing is that I NEVER experienced a lick of negativity -- NOT EVEN ONCE.

Of course, most of the lilac got worn off my right index finger which is the one selected to serve as the pulse-ox sense-point -- and I'd do the fine adjustment on it.

OWN IT, CARRY IT WELL, and people will respect that -- especially if you respect them. Of course it's easier when dealing with professionals than when dealing with riff-raff, but I try to avoid the riff-raff to the maximum extent possible. They're dangerous and unpredictable.

[Mouse]

I've been offline for a few days (in hospital......

I am pleased you had a positive experience in the hospital and you are now out. Oddly enough I was also in hospital on Friday with blue nails, bright orange skirt, normal Mouse Jewellery and a brown handbag. I was in for a lens replacement surgery on my left eye. The handbag was very useful for storing all of my jewellery safely, but the skirt and nails made it to the operating room under my hospital gown and out the other side in a blanket and wheel chair! I too never experienced any negativity throughout my visit.