I don't want to be labeled

[crfriend]

This is primarily a flash-point issue and is one more way the controllers are keeping the general populace's eyes away from what's really going on behind the scenes. Ignore the hot-button issues and look critically at what's happening to society around you and what's driving that change. Don't be led around by the nose, and don't fall for diversionary tactics.

[Dust]

Whilst we are on the subject (and please forgive me if this is a point I have raised previously), I happen to think that there is a golden opportunity here to take gender out of situations wherever possible (particularly in the school environment). The school I attended encouraged the playing of mixed doubles wherever possible for the likes of tennis and badminton. We played mixed-sex netball and rounders in VI Form (which takes us up the age of 18). Many track and field and swimming events could be mixed sex where there is a team / relay element. I appreciate that some sports need to be separated by sex in the interest of fairness and safety, but I think there are many sports where this need not be the case.

Even in the case of mixed sporting events, there are generally rules requiring a certain number of players of each sex on the team, or perhaps just a minimum number of females, at least at the highly competitive level. So this still doesn't deal with the question of trans athletes, who would need to be counted as either male of female.

There is no reason it won't work for friendly, low stakes pick-up games. At that level I'm sure it already does work. But start putting money on the line, either professional contacts or college scholarship money, and sports becomes a highly competitive business​, quickly involving only high level athletes. Everything from admissions spots to paychecks are on the line. It would be great if we took the money out of it, and all sports could be for fun and love of the game, but that ship sailed long ago.

I played a lot of mixed sex pick-up games of ultimate (frisbee) over the years, and had a great time. But even there, the guys and girls had to be fairly evenly split between the two teams, because most of the girls simply could not keep up with most of the guys. There were also particularly fast guys some of the other guys couldn't keep up with, but none of the girls could keep up with them. And that was a non-contact sport.

[denimini]

If a person who was born a biological male decides to identify as a woman and does it convincingly, then how is anyone going to know that they are not. I assume women's toilets offer some privacy.
It could be rather invasive policing anti trans laws.
The Austrailian Government is pretty liberal in accepting gender identity and hopefully will stay that way.

[STEVIE]

If all these places have unisex facilities and have plenty of customers, why should anyone want anything different?

Hi Howard
You are absolutely correct in this, most "anyone" won't want anything different as a result of this clarification of the legislation.
It's more likely that the vast majority of people won't even be aware of, or, the implications.
As this pertains only to the UK, my instinct is that our live and let live attitude will survive but so will the existing bigots and reactionaries.
In any circumstances, always be aware of your environment and the people around you, best advice and nothing new.
Steve.

[MrSoapsud]

Someone I follow on Instagram posted this (in response to a comment about genes):
"You don’t have to prove your genes to get access to a toilet or a changing room. I bet you don’t know your own sex chromosome make-up, you just assume it to be something. Since no one ever carries their birth certificate around with them we are now in a situation where a law exists that can only ever be enforced subjectively based entirely on the perception of individuals. Cis women are already being excluded from public bathrooms in the US for looking too manly. Best tell your wife / daughter to start dressing like Barbie every time they leave the house. This particular bunch of ‘feminists’ have just ensured from here on out women have to look womanly or heaven help them! Leaving trans people out of it for a minute, this is a spectacular own-goal by any measure."

[Uncle Al]

In any circumstance, always be aware of your environment and the people around you <snip>

I took the liberty of a slight change to this statement.
This statement, is the best advice anyone can give or get

Uncle Al

[Faldaguy]

Silly me, I had a "self-labelling" problem this morning. Today was a Pride Parade, followed by a gathering at the local craft/farmer's bi-weekly market. I don't think I've even been to a Pride event, although I've usually known a number in our circle of acquaintances who do identify the the GLBQT+ (or whatever it is these days) and I recognize the discrimination and a backlash they often face for nothing other than their sexual orientation/dress, or ID. We would be going to the market anyway, the parade was starting a couple of blocks from our house, and we knew quite a few people who would be there -- so to help make a public statement that 'everybody' deserves the same freedoms, we attended.

BUT, I was not sure how I felt or how I should dress! I am just a guy that wears skirts -- many, if not most of the community know that, or at least have seen me enough times to have figured it out. I in turn fretted that if I turned up as just a guy in a skirt it might appear I was mocking some of the others there, when I had no personal connection to GLBTQ....? In the end, I figured I'd stand out if I did NOT wear a skirt, since most folks here know I do daily. And, it seems these Pride events are not only a statement of "We are people too" but a bit of pushing the boundaries for fun and to show how silly the matter of presentation truly is at it's core. So, both my spouse and I grabbed similar "rainbow" colored skirts and off we went. Yet, here I was wondering about what my label concerns were before I set out! The event was as much spoof as standing up and saying, 'hey, here we are, your neighbors, part of the normal daily community and having a bit of fun today.

I gather from some of the postings here some SC members are worried about being associated with, or grouped into the GLBT...spectrum. This does worry me some. Unless there is something inherently wrong with being outside the 'norm' on either a sexual orientation or gender identification spectrum -- why would we concerned at erroneous labels. Unless I'm seeking a bed-mate -- I really don't give a hoot if you cross dress; like consenting cows; or don't feel in alignment with your assigned gender. In these days of the Tate type Bro movement, there is not much pride to be had in being called a man!

[STEVIE]

This does worry me some. Unless there is something inherently wrong with being outside the 'norm' on either a sexual orientation or gender identification spectrum -- why would we concerned at erroneous labels.

That's just as well Faldaguy, cos you can't do anything much about it in any case.
When anyone, anywhere on this planet is being viewed by another human, they are liable to be labelled, categorised and probably judged.
Fact is that in most cases, we are not even aware that it's happening nor, of course, that we are doing it to others too.
Susie has made a very valid comment to me.
"It is not all about your skirt"!
She is right, there could be any number of "labels" assigned to you, not one of which has to be based on how you are dressed.
As for "normal", I don't know what that is, does anyone?
Our local pride is in June and my intention is to show just how normal really, is not!
Steve.

[Myopic Bookworm]

Just catching up with the forum after a few days away. I have to say there are a lot of very sensible comments in this thread.

I have been engaged in a bit of discussion on Facebook with a friend who is a lifelong campaigner for women's rights (especially in 3rd world countries) and is definitely a long way towards the Gender Critical/TERF side of things. I sent her an account I found of the present impossible position, from the point of view of a trans man who had to attend hospital for minor surgery. Could not legally be admitted to the men's space. Could not practically be accepted (with beard and all) in the women's space. Could not legally be denied facilities as a trans person. Had to be given a private side room, potentially blocking someone with a more pressing medical need for one.

As a man who sometimes wears a dress, I am myself offended by the TERF use of "men in dresses" as a derogatory term for trans women.

I have, for some time, regarded going into the Gents in a skirt as a subliminal protest against gender stereotyping. Now that trans people are under such social pressure, I am even more committed to undermining popular assumptions about what men and women are "supposed" to look like. (I shall also be attending my third Pride event later this year, and dressing as weirdly as I can without risking divorce!)

[Mouse]

....and dressing as weirdly as I can without risking divorce!

For me you have pointed out the one person in my life who I do wish to see me as the man she married. Not withstanding the changes that have affected the both of us over 33 years.

The rest of the world can categorise me as they please. I have no control of what they think of me, but a long grey/white bushy beard keeps most of them on track.

[Susie]

I hope none of you are adversely affected by this develpoment, but remember the words of Pastor Martin Niemöller:

First they came for the Communists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Communist
Then they came for the Socialists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Socialist
Then they came for the trade unionists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a trade unionist
Then they came for the Jews
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Jew
Then they came for me
And there was no one left
To speak out for me

[Barleymower]

I hope none of you are adversely affected by this develpoment, but remember the words of Pastor Martin Niemöller:

First they came for the Communists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Communist
Then they came for the Socialists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Socialist
Then they came for the trade unionists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a trade unionist
Then they came for the Jews
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Jew
Then they came for me
And there was no one left
To speak out for me

Thank you Susie, its a point that all to often feels like some have their fingers in their ears. We are all affected by judgements that leave members of society out in tte cold.

[STEVIE]

dressing as weirdly as I can without risking divorce!)

In order to be true to yourself, MB, sometimes that too,
Even the judgement of your "nearest and dearest" is ultimately, beyond your control.
Steve.

[moonshadow]

I hope none of you are adversely affected by this develpoment, but remember the words of Pastor Martin Niemöller:

First they came for the Communists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Communist
Then they came for the Socialists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Socialist
Then they came for the trade unionists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a trade unionist
Then they came for the Jews
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Jew
Then they came for me
And there was no one left
To speak out for me

We are an imperfect species. I mused to my wife the other day about the social idea of "living in a free society". It seems that the world we live in is increasingly becoming more polarized into two major warring factions, and the area formally known as "the moderate middle" is becoming small and smaller with those leaning slightly left having to join the extreme left and vice versa for the right just to survive (socially anyway).

Anyway, it seemed to me, in my observation, that just about everyone wants to be free, but in practice, few seem to abide a truly "free society", and what I mean by that is the tolerance to respect the liberties of others we may not agree with. To put it another way, it seems each of us, individually, are pushing harder and harder to build a world that is pleasing to our own individual eyes, and we're all guilty of this to some degree, including myself.

I rather like the phrase I read recently regarding the increasing amount of "noise" that has consumed modern life, using lawn mowing as the example: (forgive me I can't find the exact quote, so I'll have to paraphrase...)

"mowing your own lawn is your right, your neighbor mowing his lawn is noise, your neighbor mowing your lawn is music!"

I've seem this unfold even here at SC over the years. The scorn regarding boys sagging their pants, wearing funky hairstyles, and more recently the anti-religious discussion, indeed, we all want to build a world suitable to our own eyes. We perish the thought of turning the other cheek, turning the channel, shutting off the news, or simply unsubscribing from a thread, rather, we push for what we deem acceptable to us on an individual level.

Freedom is at risk of breaking down because in order to be free, we must also respect the rights of others, including those we don't agree with.

People are forgetting the art of simply turning and walking away when we see something we don't like (provided nobody is being physically hurt). I know I've personally been "Karen'ed" more times in the last year than I think I have in my entire life, to the point where I simply loathe going out in society at all, it seems that my very existence is simply intolerable to various people. It's also had the side effect of taming my skirted looks a lot, and 80% of the time, I actually just dress "normal" so as not to stand out. I'm just tired of constantly being accosted by people who make it their life mission to police my every move.

And this is why we can't have nice things.

[Coder]

People are forgetting the art of simply turning and walking away when we see something we don't like (provided nobody is being physically hurt). I know I've personally been "Karen'ed" more times in the last year than I think I have in my entire life, to the point where I simply loathe going out in society at all, it seems that my very existence is simply intolerable to various people. It's also had the side effect of taming my skirted looks a lot, and 80% of the time, I actually just dress "normal" so as not to stand out. I'm just tired of constantly being accosted by people who make it their life mission to police my every move.

And this is why we can't have nice things.

Amen to that!