Cafe Etiquette

[Barleymower]

I would like to think that the cafe is a place where support for your fellow MIS is guaranteed regardless of our own particular circumstances. Dont we get enough morality pushed on us iin our everyday lives without experiencing it here as well? Who cares if your personal reasons for dressing as you do are not strictly in line with cafe MiS definitions?

One thing we should all have in common is a desire to dress as we please while remaining men

How about we accept each other's differences and stop telling each other how wonderful we look and be a bit more critical of the outfit?.

Here's a suggestion: rather than saying don't say that or you'll get kicked off. We could say show us the look then!

[Modoc]

It's a strange quirk of human nature that says, "It's okay to be different but not too different, just different within a range that I find acceptable. With regards to dress, I am guilty in that I sometimes judge a person's attire to be in poor taste, even though I fully acknowledge that the only taste that matters is that of the wearer and his or her circle of influence.

[Barleymower]

It's a strange quirk of human nature that says, "It's okay to be different but not too different, just different within a range that I find acceptable. With regards to dress, I am guilty in that I sometimes judge a person's attire to be in poor taste, even though I fully acknowledge that the only taste that matters is that of the wearer and his or her circle of influence.

Modoc, "different but not too different" that is also true with the walls of the Cafe? Should we, who dare to be different place restrictions on others who's version of different is not the same as ours?

[Coder]

Modoc, "different but not too different" that is also true with the walls of the Cafe? Should we, who dare to be different place restrictions on others who's version of different is not the same as ours?

I see Skirt Cafe as a special interest group - it's not so much that we (collectively) place restrictions on others because we think they shouldn't be allowed to wear said clothes - rather it's that those other forms of expression don't fit with the aims of the community. So a lot of the "restrictions" I see here tend to be efforts to keep the forum skirt-focused.

I totally agree we shouldn't place restrictions on others, as it would be hypocritical of ourselves - at the same time I think we can be judgmental on whether an outfit is successful or not in our eyes. Not liking how someone is attired is not the same as saying they shouldn't be allowed to wear said ensemble.

[Sepchugang]

At the risk of stating the obvious, it seems to me that the aims detailed at the top of the page cover all of this - particularly if you go on to the "see here" link in the last sentence.

I've only been a member of the cafe for a bit less than a year but I really value the contribution of other members and find that there is considerable freedom to express views whilst still maintaining absolute respect for everyone who posts. There is even the option to cover "off-skirt" topics with the inclusion of an "off-topic" section. Negative criticism can be hurtful and has no place here. However, respect does not mean that you cannot be constructively critical so I agree with you BM when you say "How about we accept each other's differences and stop telling each other how wonderful we look and be a bit more critical of the outfit?" and then go on to state "We could say show us the look then!"

[Seb]

Well, an easy solution is to write "concrit welcome/encouraged" or similar when you post a picture you're okay with getting constructive criticism on. It leaves the choice up to the subject.

[rode_kater]

How about we accept each other's differences and stop telling each other how wonderful we look and be a bit more critical of the outfit?.

You get the same kinds of discussions on crossdressing Reddits. Basically, people post photo's and there's a lot of piling on about how great it looks. Generally, unless you're explicitly asking for criticism, you're not going to get it. This is because a significant chunk of people there are posting pictures to feel better about themselves, and so any kind of criticism, constructive or otherwise, goes down badly.

So there's a tag [CCW] (constructive criticism wanted) which people can add to their posts which tell people you're ok with an honest opinion. There's even a posting guide the help people make good photos.

Is the cafe a place where you can assume everyone is open for criticism on their outfits? I don't really know, but personally unless explicitly asked for I'm going to stick to maybe "it's not my colour" or "I'd wear something longer". Or probably just not respond at all unless I actually like it.

[crfriend]

On criticism...

It needs to be done precisely, tactfully, and in a "to-the-point" manner. Personal opinions are, important, but another important factor to be recalled is that you're talking about someone else's appearance and humans can be "sensitive" to that sort of thing (the way that explosives have a "sensitiveness" rating).

Be cogent. If something revolves around an opinion, clearly state so. If possible, gently suggest alternative approaches. A good example of this revolves around the fact that most men are ignorant of colour theory. Ignorance, recall, is trivially correctable by learning something about the subject and is subsequently banished. Men are ignorant of it because it's something they've never had to worry about because everything safe in the typical man's wardrobe is either completely neutral (white, black, grey), earth-toned, navy blue, or denim (spit! personal opinion). So none of that ever mattered. Heck, I never learned anything about it really until I was in my 30s and working with colour-capable graphic plotters which could produce shades by dithering -- that found new utility when I started wearing skirts in my early 40s and amazed my late ex- when she realised I actually knew how colours worked in the real world. I was daring with my outfits -- and I still am from time to time.

Length. This is sometimes a hot-button topic and can generate much friction. My most recent romantic failure hated my short skirts, but that was because I had better legs than her -- and I was slightly older. (She admitted as much one time, stating that, "Well you do have very good legs.".) Nobody is going to really gripe about long, although my late ex- gave me some flak for buying a floor-length micro-pleated satin skirt -- at least until she saw me in motion wearing the thing and then was a convert.

Footwear. I'll be honest here and state that I have never liked or been attracted to stiletto heels -- especially the super-high ones that look like they belong on streetwalkers. I consider them dangerous to the wearer and simply unattractive. Blocks and wedges are fine, just so long as they don't interfere with things. I also do not understand womens' fascination with bare feet, and thus have a hard time fathoming sandals. Again, personal opinion.)

If I'm to criticise, I try to be objective and remove my opinions and biases from the equation and comment on specifics -- and it's important to note that I am not criticising the person, but rather the selection tactic of that person's adornment. I think if more adhered to that, we'd be better off. This includes idiocy like lumping somebody into a "spectrum box" that they don't belong in. That's what's gotten people in trouble in the past. Don't do it.

[Barleymower]

I see Skirt Cafe as a special interest group - it's not so much that we (collectively) place restrictions on others because we think they shouldn't be allowed to wear said clothes - rather it's that those other forms of expression don't fit with the aims of the community. So a lot of the "restrictions" I see here tend to be efforts to keep the forum skirt-focused.

I have noticed that posters stray into unacceptable language for example calling skirts "women's clothes" they quickly find themselves potentially being thrown off. They are saying something that the rest of the world is already saying. Essentially I see no harm in saying they are women's wear. What does it really matter.? Maybe there could a world where we recognise that they are women's clothes but we are free to wear them without being scoffed at?

I totally agree we shouldn't place restrictions on others, as it would be hypocritical of ourselves - at the same time I think we can be judgmental on whether an outfit is successful or not in our eyes. Not liking how someone is attired is not the same as saying they shouldn't be allowed to wear said ensemble.

Yes, I would like to think that the men of SK are thick skinned enough to accept a bit of criticism. Any criticism should be accompanied by a suggested improvement. That way we can all work together to improve the presentation and perception of MIS

[Barleymower]

You get the same kinds of discussions on crossdressing Reddits. Basically, people post photo's and there's a lot of piling on about how great it looks. Generally, unless you're explicitly asking for criticism, you're not going to get it. This is because a significant chunk of people there are posting pictures to feel better about themselves, and so any kind of criticism, constructive or otherwise, goes down badly.

So there's a tag [CCW] (constructive criticism wanted) which people can add to their posts which tell people you're ok with an honest opinion. There's even a posting guide the help people make good photos.

Is the cafe a place where you can assume everyone is open for criticism on their outfits? I don't really know, but personally unless explicitly asked for I'm going to stick to maybe "it's not my colour" or "I'd wear something longer". Or probably just not respond at all unless I actually like it.

Wise words RK

[Barleymower]

If I'm to criticise, I try to be objective and remove my opinions and biases from the equation and comment on specifics -- and it's important to note that I am not criticising the person, but rather the selection tactic of that person's adornment. I think if more adhered to that, we'd be better off. This includes idiocy like lumping somebody into a "spectrum box" that they don't belong in. That's what's gotten people in trouble in the past. Don't do it.

What's your view on women's wear? And people using the term here? I've made my feeling clear in this thread.
Essentially I'm not bothered wether anyone calls items of clothes women's wear. It's all the same to me.
What does bother me is there are now several items of what used to be menswear no long available in men's cuts. If that's the case I'm happy to stroll on over and reclaim them.

[Coder]

I see Skirt Cafe as a special interest group - it's not so much that we (collectively) place restrictions on others because we think they shouldn't be allowed to wear said clothes - rather it's that those other forms of expression don't fit with the aims of the community. So a lot of the "restrictions" I see here tend to be efforts to keep the forum skirt-focused.

I have noticed that posters stray into unacceptable language for example calling skirts "women's clothes" they quickly find themselves potentially being thrown off. They are saying something that the rest of the world is already saying. Essentially I see no harm in saying they are women's wear. What does it really matter.? Maybe there could a world where we recognise that they are women's clothes but we are free to wear them without being scoffed at?

I don't think it matters a LOT - if we can somehow convince the world there is no deviancy in men wearing women's clothes. But right now there is a huge disparity in how men adopting women's things VS women adopting men's thing is seen - and is the deeper seated issue. Fix that, and I think the clothing issue goes away for the most part.

[Fred in Skirts]

First of all, I really don't like to be negative about what others wear. If I do not like what they are wearing I will not say anything about it. I do sometimes say I like what they are wearing but I am not a fan of the color or style on me. That I would wear a different color or style that looks better for my body size or shape.

I also will not call clothes woman's wear, I just call them clothes. If someone tells me I am wearing woman's clothes I tell them they are my clothes and a woman has never worn them, I bought them new!

I try to be honest without hurting others feelings, I TRY!!

[Barleymower]

I see Skirt Cafe as a special interest group - it's not so much that we (collectively) place restrictions on others because we think they shouldn't be allowed to wear said clothes - rather it's that those other forms of expression don't fit with the aims of the community. So a lot of the "restrictions" I see here tend to be efforts to keep the forum skirt-focused.

I have noticed that posters stray into unacceptable language for example calling skirts "women's clothes" they quickly find themselves potentially being thrown off. They are saying something that the rest of the world is already saying. Essentially I see no harm in saying they are women's wear. What does it really matter.? Maybe there could a world where we recognise that they are women's clothes but we are free to wear them without being scoffed at?

I don't think it matters a LOT - if we can somehow convince the world there is no deviancy in men wearing women's clothes. But right now there is a huge disparity in how men adopting women's things VS women adopting men's thing is seen - and is the deeper seated issue. Fix that, and I think the clothing issue goes away for the most part.

What would you say if I said we are already there? I mean that sincerely.
Here I just wear skirts.i do however wear any skirt I want (as long as it's knee length). Reactions? All positive.
If there's any negativity, I think it's from feminists groups and men who think men should be men.
As long as we rock a skirt and make no pretence it's all good.

[Barleymower]

First of all, I really don't like to be negative about what others wear. If I do not like what they are wearing I will not say anything about it. I do sometimes say I like what they are wearing but I am not a fan of the color or style on me. That I would wear a different color or style that looks better for my body size or shape.

I also will not call clothes woman's wear, I just call them clothes. If someone tells me I am wearing woman's clothes I tell them they are my clothes and a woman has never worn them, I bought them new!

I try to be honest without hurting others feelings, I TRY!!

Fred I mostly feel the same as you. I think some of us need to be told when the look is not looking good. We need accept positive criticism.
I'm not fussed if people call them women's clothes. I am bothered if people are shut down for their views, I am bothered if people are determined to shove their views onto others.