MIni Dresses & Skirts for Men

[crfriend]

The main problem here is that we're skirting applying "circular logic" here -- and that never works. Here's the main reason that men don't wear skirts: Men don't wear skirts. Full stop. Think about that for a moment and let the insanity sink in. We need to fight this.

Consider:

1) The problem is not retailers. Any decent retailer couldn't care less about who he sells to, he just wants to make the sale, and the reason skirts aren't marketed to men is that men don't wear skirts.
2) The main problem is men -- they simply don't wear skirts, for the simple reason that they don't. They have the option, but they don't exercise it because they never think of it.
3) The other main driver in this are women, because women are afraid of how they'll be viewed if on the arm of a man wearing a skirt. This keeps relationships from starting, and with no start there's no relationship -- and men don't necessarily want be alone for their entire lives. And the main reason women are scared is -- you guessed it -- men don't wear skirts.
4) Min wearing skirts are viewed as "odd", and get harassed for it, mostly by those who don't have meaningful lives for themselves -- and the reason is -- you got it again -- "Men don't wear skirts".

So, the onus is on us because nobody else is going actually do anything; there's no motivation. Just simply wear skirts and get out there and be seen. If you don't, nobody is going to do it for you, because -- "Men don't wear skirts."

[mr seamstress]

For women to accept us men in skirts and dress, we need to consider when women was allow to wear jeans and all restrictions was remove that was against them. Up to including 1970 schools restricted females wearing pants and there was laws that was being used to put women in jail for wearing pants. Below I post a story about jeans, but keep in mind the story claim jeans being social accepted by women because the wearer wouldn't be arrested in 1910. That part of story is false because it was much later when woman was allow to wear pants without being arrested.
https://medium.com/moderated/i-am-recap ... 3507838e4c
It was in 1937 Levi started making jeans for women.
I know how my sisters was forbitten from wearing Jeans. My brother and me was the ones did the family laundry and we never had jeans to wash for females members of family. I did family laundry up to including 1968 when I left home on my own.
Everybody needs to keep in mind that it was mid-20th century that pants became widely accepted as everyday attire for women in Western culture. Just what did it take for that to happen? As far as I am concern it is going to take a lot of actions before we are accepted in our attire as just we took to accept women wearing jeans as everyday attire.

[Barleymower]

For women to accept us men in skirts and dress, we need to consider when women was allow to wear jeans and all restrictions was remove that was against them. Up to including 1970 schools restricted females wearing pants and there was laws that was being used to put women in jail for wearing pants. Below I post a story about jeans, but keep in mind the story claim jeans being social accepted by women because the wearer wouldn't be arrested in 1910. That part of story is false because it was much later when woman was allow to wear pants without being arrested.
https://medium.com/moderated/i-am-recap ... 3507838e4c
It was in 1937 Levi started making jeans for women.
I know how my sisters was forbitten from wearing Jeans. My brother and me was the ones did the family laundry and we never had jeans to wash for females members of family. I did family laundry up to including 1968 when I left home on my own.
Everybody needs to keep in mind that it was mid-20th century that pants became widely accepted as everyday attire for women in Western culture. Just what did it take for that to happen? As far as I am concern it is going to take a lot of actions before we are accepted in our attire as just we took to accept women wearing jeans as everyday attire.

Men have to want it. I'm not sure they do.
Perhaps a more likely scenario is: some men will normalise fashion freedom for men. Some men will take advantage of it and most won't but everyone will accept it.

[Barleymower]

Bashing retailers here isn't going help us much. If we want retailers to recognize us as men buying dresses and skirts then we need become a voice of a group of buyers. This mean we need be more organize.
We can start by sending letters to Walmart home office and other retailers and demand that we men to be recognize its customer base who is buying what products to be represent as being said customer. We men need to start leaving reviews as the one who made purchase for themselves to wear instead of female.
If you want retailers to change, then we need start to making some changing on our own also. Who here is willing to give a review of dress or skirt with a picture of themselves in it?

I like the idea and I think it could work. There are enough men and women here to form a pressure group to demand retailers show men wearing skirts and dresses on their.sites. If they sell a skirt or dress as unisex they must show both sexes wearing it or it is just lip service to improve their credentials. By not showing men in unisex skirts and dresses they are being sexist. It's decrimination. Show men in skirts and dresses or take it down alltogether.

I would even say it's sexist to.not show men wearing the same clothes as the women. Women wear mens clothes after all?

[Uncle Al]

<snip> Up to including 1970 schools restricted females wearing pants <snip>

I beg to differ with you.

I graduated High School(U.S.) in 1970. 80%+ of the girls in my class wore jeans or slacks to school.
There wasn't any law forbidding girls from wearing pants. The "dress code" was somewhat lenient
in the public schools. No low-cut blouses and, if wearing a skirt, the skirt could not be shorter than
the wearers finger-tips with their arms down at their sides. The prohibition on pants was primarily
at the parochial schools, which required a 'uniform'.

Uncle Al

[mr seamstress]

<snip> Up to including 1970 schools restricted females wearing pants <snip>

I beg to differ with you.

I graduated High School(U.S.) in 1970. 80%+ of the girls in my class wore jeans or slacks to school.
There wasn't any law forbidding girls from wearing pants. The "dress code" was somewhat lenient
in the public schools. No low-cut blouses and, if wearing a skirt, the skirt could not be shorter than
the wearers finger-tips with their arms down at their sides. The prohibition on pants was primarily
at the parochial schools, which required a 'uniform'.

Uncle Al

I'm glad you was able to attend a school that didn't restrict females from wearing pants. But the fact remains not all schools dress code are equal. I didn't say every school's policy was restricted but there was still schools that restrict females from wearing pants. I went to one of those schools just like my sisters before me and after me. I'm one of the middle siblings, but the youngest boy. Do a search of internet you will find there were schools across the country still restricted female students from wearing pants to the beginning of the 70's. Even today from school to school you will find there is differences in dress codes. While one school dress code allows African-American wear his/her dreadlocks as long they wants another school put limits in length. There is a student been expel from school over his hair in 2023-24 year in Texas while majority other schools wouldn't say anything over their hair. Just like in 60's to the 70's schools expel male students over their hair. You have a school in Texas is a parents nightmare today as I post this.

[Spirou003]

There are enough men and women here to form a pressure group

Not convinced. Let's say we are 300 active members here, and each one will buy 200 skirts in their lifetime. Suppose each skirt costs 100€ (which is already more than a lot of members here would accept to pay for it, me included), this sums up to 6.000.000€, say distributed within 40 years. This means 150.000€ yearly, to be distributed across all retailers, and this is only the gross income (not considering what they will pay to provide us the skirts). Now, remove all the exagerated assumption I've made, consider that members are spread all around the world and like different styles of skirts. Is it still high enough to constitute a pressure group?

As for women in pants, this has been triggerred by WW. This forced women in pants at work (and then showing to the few men still at work that women in pants, is not end of world). Eventually a few daring ones were doing their daily commute trousered. Why not adding that some of them - for practical purposes - started to go shopping trousered near their working place? And here it is, you have the women in pants in the street, and society had just no choice but to accustom to it.
Now, to compare men in skirt with women in pants, the main difference is that women beneficited of a major event (WW) to push them in that direction.
Unless that major event pops up, growth of men in skirt will have to go at its slow, very slow pace. With each man in skirt being alone in its city and having to bear in mind that if women don't want to start a relationship with a men in skirt, they only have one candidate to eliminate from thousands of candidates. Whereas for him, this may eliminate the vast majority of candidates and make it impossible for him to date the few remaining ones, who have nothing special to differentiate thelmselves from all others.

PS: I'm not blaming women, just saying it the way it is. Since men don't wear skirt, skirt is seen as feminine. Since skirt is seen as feminine, men don't wear skirt. Circular logic. But adding the fact that women are looking for a masculine partner, the consequence is that they are not looking for a man in skirt

[STEVIE]

There are enough men and women here to form a pressure group to demand retailers show men wearing skirts and dresses on their.sites.

Sorry BM, but you know how difficult it is to get a group that amounts to double figures together.
Enough to form a "pressure group" that any sizeable retailer would actually take notice of?
It just won't happen, men can but just don't choose to wear skirts in sufficient numbers.
The past advertising to sell trousers to women had nothing to do with acceptance, that was already there by the women themselves.
The retailers knew there was a huge lucrative market and they wanted a piece of the action.
Sure it took time, but men just had to learn to put up, or shut up, which we did and the majority still do.
If we see fifty brave souls, or more in Newcastle in September, I may reconsider.
If not, that brick wall is a damn sight harder than your head you know.
Mr Seamstress, please note these comments, they are not simply based on negative thinking.
If I am critical of anyone, it is men themselves, for their apathy and reluctance to claim the freedom of choice that is theirs to make.
Steve.

[Mouse]

I am slightly bemused here. I have so much choice as in what to buy. I have a whole world of skirts available, boots and shoes of every shape and colour. I can paint my nails any colour I like, I can hang whatever I like from my ears and nose. Recently I have discovered that I can carry a bag with all my bits in and don't have to restrict myself to skirts with pockets. My life is only limited by the size of my wardrobe, my finance and the stuff inside my head.

I do not need manufactures to show me what would look good on a male model. I have a brain and skirts are one of the easiest things to buy to fit to your body, once you have worked out the size system being used by a store or web site. Usually with a skirt as long as you buy it big enough, a belt can always keep it in place.

I agree shoes and boots are not always made in the range of sizes to suit us all, which is one reason I bought the heeled Converse when they were launched as unisex and in a range of big sizes. (They did have a male model in heels on the US site)

I still think that women took to trousers by wearing them. I remember in the 60s my mother wearing trousers (she called them slacks in those days) more as she saw her friends wearing them more.

I know I am fortunate in my current situation. But, I had to do things to get to where I am wearing skirts everyday and not all steps were easy. I have learnt that nobody cares what I wear and I can go wherever I like. I am not special in any way. The UK is a safe space for a man to wear a skirt in all parts of his life. Sure you may have to explain yourself, but that can actually be fun. You become someone people remember among the grey mass of ordinary men. Do be totally up front and confident, even if you don't feel like it inside. As I have posted in another section, I think us old guys have it easier, but nothing is stopping any man doing what I am doing. For the past few weeks I have been taking a picture of myself most days and putting up in my pics area. I am doing this to show that day by day a man can live his life in a skirt. http://www.skirtcafe.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=24615

I think that if there are enough of us out there buying and wearing skirts, then designers, manufactures and retailers will all change to meet the demand.

I also think that if you commit to skirt wearing and things that support skirt wearing as a large part of your life, rather than just a hobby. Buying skirts and boots, etc. becomes part of life that you would normally spend money on. So when I played with skirts in private as a hobby, eBay was my friend for skirts and boots/shoes. My jeans and shoes I use for work were bought in the normal way from retailers. Now I am in skirts all of the time, I now buy my skirts and boots in the same way I used to buy my jeans and shoes. I don't have to justify my hobby spend against the rest of life. So as you all know I recently bought a new work skirt on Amazon and last year I bought a pair of green Chelsea boots "slip ons" on Oxford street to help me going in and out of clients houses. These are part of life purchases and not hobby......well to be fair I have more boots than a strictly necessary, but some of us have a boot problem.

I am not trying to brag here and I respect you all in your own various circumstances, places and family situations. There is also nothing wrong with putting a skirt on or anything else you fancy, in private or public as much as you like or as little.

What I am saying is that right here and now we have everything we need to put on a skirt and travel round say a world city such as London, go to museums, shops, restaurants, pubs, cinema, use the tube, buses or taxis, walk in the parks, go wherever you like. We are free to do this and anyone can, without getting the permission from designers or anybody else. Last weekend I drove from Cambridge to Cockfosters, Tube to Wood Green, had lunch in a pub, took bus to Alexandra Palace, went round model train show, then retraced each step back to Cambridge. All while wearing a latex skirt and 3.5" Timberland wedges with my new handbag. http://www.skirtcafe.org/forums/viewtop ... 39#p257539 What more could you ask for? More normal days I make a similar journey and visit my clients in a working skirt. http://www.skirtcafe.org/forums/viewtop ... 54#p257654

I think that I have all I need, right now, to be a happy man in a skirt.

[rivegauche]

Obviously the social side of skirt wearing has some way to go. I am old enough to remember when it was difficult to purchase skirts because you would rarely be able to try them on. That has changed beyond recognition in 30 years, I probably don't have another 30 to wait for it to become socially acceptable. At present there are not enough of us to do it openly in public to effect a change - more of us need to get out there more often to normalise it. I live in a small town in otherwise rural Scotland and I have twice seen men supermarket shopping in skirts and two of the villages round here had men who openly wore dresses as men. I admit that I compromise - rarely less than 30 miles from home, or in places only visited by tourists closer to home. We had a brief spate of male celebs turning up in skirts but for most of them it was a passing phase which has now passed. I am mystified by this as I would have thought that once you experience the superior comfort of a skirt on a hot day there would be no going back. I do not give up hope. I can't currently see how widespread male skirt wearing will become a thing but changes in society can happen unpredictably and I live in hope.

[mr seamstress]

As I have posted women started in 60's when they started buying and wear pants. This is more likely from when women really started breaking the stigma they faced. The biggest hurdle is from not going to jail for wearing pants, these crossdressing laws. You will be having courts in this time period throwing out these laws as unconstitutional. By this it gave women the freedom to wear pants. They was able end one of the stigma that prevented them wearing pants.
Even though we are not a large group that shouldn't stop us from campaigning retailers to be more active in having male models wearing dresses and skirts. Wise retailers will listen for all the profit they can make.
For those who can make a difference in schools beside in getting dress code change, I ask if you are willing make more changes if they haven't already been implemented? Have schools inform these young lads they can wear whatever they want with a video presentation of boys wearing skirts? Have these schools establish skirt day to encourage these young lads to wear skirts? Then there is this dress up day to encourage students wearing attire they don't normality wear. Then you can have a teacher to do a modern art class of boys in skirts. Simple concept just have art teacher bring in skirts to have boys just wear them. This is were they will be percipients of the art. This ideal came from the video that I post below. If you willing to do such an art class and need funding, just start a GoFundMe page on here.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XbPt5fsDrm0
This video shows Dylan Cawthorne in promoting wearing clothes outside regular man's wear.

[rivegauche]

There is more than one country in the modern west. it has never been unconstitutional for women to wear trousers in the UK though I understand it was illegal for women to wear trousers in Paris until very recently, the same as adultery is apparently still illegal in New York - some laws are not enforced. There has never been a legal problem with men wearing skirts in the UK in modern times but any teacher who encouraged boys to wear skirts in school is probably going to get into trouble with the anti-trans brigade. We know it's not related but they don't. Changes in schools have to come from the pupils with the schools enabling rather than encouraging. The UK has long been vastly more liberal than most of the US and it is a mistake to apply US attitudes more widely. Thankfully many of us do not live in your country.

[Uncle Al]

As I have posted women started in 60's when they started buying and wear pants.
<snip>
This is were they will be percipients(participents) of the art. This ideal came from the video that I post below.
If you willing to do such an art class and need funding, just start a GoFundMe page on here.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XbPt5fsDrm0
This video shows Dylan Cawthorne in promoting wearing clothes outside regular man's wear.

(The bold italicized words are my attempt at clearing up mistakes made by translation software.)

I took the liberty of adding the TedX speakers last name. This was done to not confuse the reader
with Dylan Mulvaney, who is a trans-idiot. Mulvaney was hired to promote a few 'products' in the U.S.
The resulting consumer back-lash, from these promotions, caused the "Companies" to lose money.

I watched Dylan Cawthorne's video after it came out in 2023. It was posted at Skirt Cafe' around the
28th of February, 2023. It was mentioned in the topic "National Skirt Day".

It is a GREAT VIDEO

Uncle Al

[STEVIE]

Wise retailers will listen for all the profit they can make.

Mr S,
"Wise" retailers are perfectly aware of their current profits, their interest is in increasing them!
The likely uptake for men in skirts will not achieve that aim because men who wear skirts are already buying them so there will be little or no return on the investment needed.
On another note, it is beyond any doubt that many women were wearing trousers for a variety of reasons long before the 1960s.
It was not complete social acceptance which changed the retail demand, it was women, by and for themselves.
There is also another fundamental difference to the attitude/stigma toward men in skirts, women were not accused of being masculine for wearing trousers!
Schoolgirls and boys had uniforms certainly, but girls who were "tomboyish" at home were seen as cute, even encouraged.
Gods help a boy who declared a preference for skirts, in that respect the changes have been negligible and open campaigning in schools would not be well received in the current climate. Relaxing the gender boundaries can be contentious enough, even here, as for the US?
Now let's bring it up to date, several very major retailers, notably Zara, H&M, and Adidas, have all tried the unisex/skirts for men approach.
They all failed, so on the balance of probability what do you really think that a small insignificant group from an obscure corner of the worldwide web can possibly achieve?
As I commented to Barleymower, the bricks in that wall will prove to be a lot harder than your head, however, good luck and I would be genuinely pleased if I were proved to be wrong.
Steve.

[Barleymower]

In terms of history and I'm sure I'll be corrected if wrong. Women were not especially thought less of a women for wearing trousers. I think at the time men had more control and wearing trousers was seen as a rebellious act which needed to be stopped.
Men are facing a whole different problem. If men dress in womens clothes they are seen to be assuming a women's role. Physically and most importantly sexually. That's why men in skirts and dresses are seen as gay. It doesn't seem to matter that gay men would not be seen dead in a skirt.

I also think that women would take a skirted man as a partner if the conditions were right. The problem they face is they are more social then men, they do not want to be ostracised along with their skirted man, there are plenty more fish. Tribal instincts override. A women needs a group for survival, men can fend for themselves. Men are not immune to the threat of being ostracised either nobody wants to be left out in the cold.

Retailers:
I agree with Stevie, Mr seamstress, mouse and spirou003 with regard to retailers motives.
But before discounting a the idea of forming a pressure group please consider this:
1. You don't need to buy anything to leave a review.
2. One review can reach a lot of people, so a small group could also reach a lot of people.
3. Writing to retailers outside of online reviews can have an effect. There will be men like us working in the industry and your letter could reach them and give them the ammunition they need to face down opposition within the business.
4.The group is spread very thin across the globe but it is across spread far and wide. If everyone in the group were to write to local retailers, the net would be cast very wide.

I feel we cannot rest on our lorrals. If we don't do something then noone else will. Search men in skirts on the web and you will always find posts from Skirtcafe in the top ten. This means what we say is being read by many people. Yes we should keep going out there but we should also apply pressure in other ways. Being a maverick is great but I'm not sure how much being a maverick achieves?