Insults

[moonshadow]

The only time I recall as a bad experience was in 2011 in New York, Manhattan, where a guy (definitely low status) told me that I deserved to be shot dead.

Damn....

That guy does NOT represent America.

[ReverendNaughty]

Was wearing a Purple Rain dress with a long sleeve, long tail shirt over it. Went into a restroom in Arizona, and there was a hard-core biker guy there too. As I was drying my hands, the biker guy said “That looks ridiculous dude”. I wore my dress with a shirt over for 3 solid weeks, everyday, most all day, including 100% of my 9 drive days. Some people starred, and I saw some people commenting to each other about my skirted look. I received two compliments from women in the Flagstaff Whole Foods store, one RV park desk clerk said “Like the look”, and one solo lady in the same RV park asked where I got my skirt. Overall, it was a positive experience with the one negative.

I say this as both a biker and a skirt wearer, I'm sorry for the asshole.

[Barleymower]

There is something to be said for "southern hospitality". If you like your tea sweet, fried chicken, biscuits and gravy... if you stand for the anthem, and pull over to the side of the road when a funeral precession drives by, [0] hold the door for people, refer to women as "ma'am" while giving a "nod of respect" as you walk by, and talk highly of your mama, then you'll fit right in. It doesn't matter what you're wearing.

I turned around and told Liz "I know they say, "when in Rome...", but I don't care. You pay respect to a grieving family"... in this manner I'm happy to bring a little bit of southern culture to the north... maybe they'll learn something. Speaking of PRIDE... I was proud of my Virginia tag on that day... I hope they noticed how we roll (or don't roll during a funeral ) down south. And by the way, if you suspect that the deceased is a veteran, police officer, or fire fighter, then it's even appropriate to get out of your car, stand beside it remove your hat (if you're wearing one) and place your right hand over your heart.... ESPECIALLY if killed in the line of duty.

This side of the pond does not have the same traditions like biscuits in gravy but similar acts of respect are disappearing or have mostly disappeared.

I have not put in a lot of research into why our society has gone in the direction is has because I have family to provide for which takes up most of my time. I have made some observations which I know to be true and I don't care too much if people say I'm wrong:

The main culprit is consumerism. The mistaken belief that economic growth driven by ordinary people buying goods is right. Economic growth was driven by those who want to profit from the ordinary people and now blame the same people for mess in which we find ourselves.
Consumerism is to blame for all the loss of civility. Stupid people have been encouraged to consume as much as possible and humans being such greedy animals have rushed to the trough and forgotten everything that is important. Like respect for one's elders and the dead.

I don't think that consumerism is to blame for attitudes towards MIS. That's a whole different story.

It will all come good in the end

[ScotL]

As I was drying my hands, the biker guy said “That looks ridiculous dude”. I wore my dress with a shirt over for 3 solid weeks, everyday, most all day, including 100% of my 9 drive days. Some people starred, and I saw some people commenting to each other about my skirted look. I received two compliments from women…”

It took me awhile to realize why this story bothered me. Not to be pedantically contrarian, but the biker dude is not wrong. He spoke his opinion. Which is neither right nor wrong, merely his opinion. But he is entitled to have his thoughts.

I wish he had had more tact and expressed himself better.

I can speak only for myself but I suspect many on this cafe will have difficulty differentiating negative comments about our outfits between disliking a guy in a skirt versus disliking the outfit.

We may hold the biker dude stereotype where he may not be open to a guy in a skirt. But do we know? Or do we jump to the conclusion that his statement reflects a preconceived notion that biker dudes are not skirt cafe members.

Many things in fashion fall under the heading “ridiculous” when the all powerful “they” gets consulted.

They think socks with sandals is ridiculous.

They think wearing white after labor day is ridiculous.

They think white tube socks pulled up to the knees is ridiculous especially on middle aged men.

The list of what “they” think is ridiculous does not end.

I wonder if it would’ve disarmed or clarified biker dude’s intentions if you had asked “what don’t you like?” And if he objected to the skirt, extolling a skirt’s virtues in a positive manner may have allowed two civilized individuals find common ground.

I believe reacting negatively to his comments wouldn’t win over a convert.

I also know how hard it would be to think rationally when someone said something bad to me if I was in a skirt. Not wearing a skirt, I’d have no trouble defending my outfit or writing off the encounter as trivial. In a skirt, my mind shoots directly to “guys wearing skirts isn’t accepted” and I believe I’d feel embarrassed, ashamed and/or defensive.

I wrote about an adventure wearing a kilt through an airport and getting my first negative comment. Loudmouthed man smugly made an unsolicited announcement to all that there was a man in a skirt on his plane.

I froze and thankfully didn’t respond cause I know I wouldn’t have been calm, cool or collected. Despite the fact I was likely better dressed, cooler and more comfortable than he was.

As I’m sure you were also better dressed, cooler and more comfortable in the purplerain dress.

What I have learned from this is I should not presume I know why others may be staring, frowning, looking quizzically or outright stating something negative whilst skirted. They are allowed their opinion as I’m allowed to dress as I please.

I’m sure such conversations with skeptical individuals about the “why” one is wearing a skirt as a guy are difficult. But likely they’re more important than thanking a person who compliments us.

One year after introducing skirts to my wardrobe, I can absolutely state there’s good reasons for guys to wear them. In my opinion, the naysayers just haven’t been properly introduced to them.

Note: The above represents my opinion which is neither right nor wrong. Anyone who interprets my writing as chastising skirtedwalker (or biker dudes) is on the reader as that was not my intention. I applaud skirtedwalker for being a skirt cafe ambassador and sharing his story.

[denimini]

It took me awhile to realize why this story bothered me. Not to be pedantically contrarian, but the biker dude is not wrong. He spoke his opinion. Which is neither right nor wrong, merely his opinion. But he is entitled to have his thoughts.
I wish he had had more tact and expressed himself better.

Of course the biker is entitled to have his thoughts, he should just keep them to himself unless asked. Uninvited criticism is rude and nasty.
If one wanted to respond, wasting more time and mental energy:

"Aren't we lucky living in a free country; you can think what you like and I can wear what I like. I don't know why you are telling me what you think because, no offense, why would I care".

[ScotL]

It took me awhile to realize why this story bothered me. Not to be pedantically contrarian, but the biker dude is not wrong. He spoke his opinion. Which is neither right nor wrong, merely his opinion. But he is entitled to have his thoughts.
I wish he had had more tact and expressed himself better.

Of course the biker is entitled to have his thoughts, he should just keep them to himself unless asked. Uninvited criticism is rude and nasty.
If one wanted to respond, wasting more time and mental energy:

"Aren't we lucky living in a free country; you can think what you like and I can wear what I like. I don't know why you are telling me what you think because, no offense, why would I care".

If a stranger expressed a positive thought, we’re all smiles. If it’s a negative thought, they’re rude and nasty. Or are we too sensitive? When I worked with the Dutch, I learned it’s ok for people to express a negative thought about what you’re wearing because they’re not attacking the person.

As I said, I wish the biker had more tact. But it’s probably part of the growing pains in terms of gaining acceptance. Not everyone will like what we’re wearing but if their criticism was constructive, then we should be all smiles as well.

[moonshadow]

Well, thankfully most people who make take an issue with the clothing others wear generally mind their own business.

And really, that's what this is all about, people not minding their own business.

And in American culture, we don't mind to say so. Lord knows I have a few times when confronted.

[TSH]

[/i]ScotL post_id=248639 time=1685267173 user_id=45355]

As I was drying my hands, the biker guy said “That looks ridiculous dude”. I wore my dress with a shirt over for 3 solid weeks, everyday, most all day, including 100% of my 9 drive days. Some people starred, and I saw some people commenting to each other about my skirted look. I received two compliments from women…”

It took me awhile to realize why this story bothered me. Not to be pedantically contrarian, but the biker dude is not wrong. He spoke his opinion. Which is neither right nor wrong, merely his opinion. But he is entitled to have his thoughts.

I wish he had had more tact and expressed himself better.

Yeah, he "spoke his opinion" impudently to a random stranger in a restroom, so he is wrong. No one should care what others think — they certainly SHOULDN'T care what others wear. Yes, you're entitled to your thoughts. Keep them to yourself and don't offend people by crassly insulting their attire because that's exactly what happened in this scenario, and there's no other way to look at it.

I can speak only for myself but I suspect many on this cafe will have difficulty differentiating negative comments about our outfits between disliking a guy in a skirt versus disliking the outfit.

The fact that people vocally display negative comments about someone else's clothes is an issue, regardless if it's just one garment, or the entire ensemble. The distinction isn't important because people shouldn't be criticized for what they wear unless it's warranted/permitted.

We may hold the biker dude stereotype where he may not be open to a guy in a skirt. But do we know? Or do we jump to the conclusion that his statement reflects a preconceived notion that biker dudes are not skirt cafe members.

That's not really a stereotype because that could apply to a general audience; otherwise, men in skirts would be about as common as WIP. He may or may not be open to MIS. Who cares?

I wonder if it would’ve disarmed or clarified biker dude’s intentions if you had asked “what don’t you like?” And if he objected to the skirt, extolling a skirt’s virtues in a positive manner may have allowed two civilized individuals find common ground

Again, why should that even matter? He saw what @SkirtedWalker was wearing and made an undignified remark because of it. You can't find "common ground" with two "civilized" individuals when one of them is being the exact opposite of civil.

I believe reacting negatively to his comments wouldn’t win over a convert.

Good. I wouldn't want to associate myself with such a judgemental prick — which would be a lot of people on this planet. Then again, I'm not any better, so maybe you're right on that front.

I also know how hard it would be to think rationally when someone said something bad to me if I was in a skirt. Not wearing a skirt, I’d have no trouble defending my outfit or writing off the encounter as trivial. In a skirt, my mind shoots directly to “guys wearing skirts isn’t accepted” and I believe I’d feel embarrassed, ashamed and/or defensive.


I wrote about an adventure wearing a kilt through an airport and getting my first negative comment. Loudmouthed man smugly made an unsolicited announcement to all that there was a man in a skirt on his plane.

I froze and thankfully didn’t respond cause I know I wouldn’t have been calm, cool or collected. Despite the fact I was likely better dressed, cooler and more comfortable than he was.

Herein lies the point of this thread. The reality is that male humans wearing skirts WON'T be accepted for a while. It almost did happen some time in the '60s, which is a damn shame because that's around the same time women wearing pants gain traction, but people prefer living in double standards that benefit their worldview and make them comfortable.

Also, you were in a kilt, so I know you looked more presentable than that waste of space of human trash.

What I have learned from this is I should not presume I know why others may be staring, frowning, looking quizzically or outright stating something negative whilst skirted. They are allowed their opinion as I’m allowed to dress as I please.

Sure. Let them have their opinions. It's one thing to get disapproving looks from people just for wearing a specific piece of clothing, but being verbally called on it ISN'T someone simply stating an opinion; they're just being an ass. Period. Commenting negatively on someone in public, a random stranger you don't know, is not just stating an opinion. It's rude and unnecessary because opinions don't have to be blurted out in public, but we have to wear clothing for various reasons. Don't broadcast your opinion unless it's asked for, and this type of response should only be reserved for friends, and maybe even family, because it's something personal and you can suspect they'd have a valid reason why they'd tell you look "ridiculous".

I’m sure such conversations with skeptical individuals about the “why” one is wearing a skirt as a guy are difficult. But likely they’re more important than thanking a person who compliments us.

They're arguably more important because it's usually the first thing that's asked when a man wears "female" clothing. "Why" questions are, more often than not, faux questions, rather than a genuinely curious inquiry. People ask, "Why are you wearing skirts?" because they feel it's something a man has to justify wearing, as if he committed a crime or something.

One year after introducing skirts to my wardrobe, I can absolutely state there’s good reasons for guys to wear them. In my opinion, the naysayers just haven’t been properly introduced to them.

Naysayers probably won't be swayed, no matter how this concept is introduced.

It took me awhile to realize why this story bothered me. Not to be pedantically contrarian, but the biker dude is not wrong. He spoke his opinion. Which is neither right nor wrong, merely his opinion. But he is entitled to have his thoughts.
I wish he had had more tact and expressed himself better.

Of course the biker is entitled to have his thoughts, he should just keep them to himself unless asked. Uninvited criticism is rude and nasty.
If one wanted to respond, wasting more time and mental energy:

"Aren't we lucky living in a free country; you can think what you like and I can wear what I like. I don't know why you are telling me what you think because, no offense, why would I care".

If a stranger expressed a positive thought, we’re all smiles. If it’s a negative thought, they’re rude and nasty. Or are we too sensitive? When I worked with the Dutch, I learned it’s ok for people to express a negative thought about what you’re wearing because they’re not attacking the person.

Of course we're more susceptible to positive feedback. It makes up feel good and we wanna feel good. People don't take kindly to the opposite because you're putting someone down, and you might not be even aware that you're unintentionally doing that. People generally don't seek answers to how they look; they just rather go on with their day at peace. Maybe we've become more sensitive over the years, but courtesy has always been more preferably than blunt honesty (not "better"; just more preferably). No one's saying people shouldn't express negative thoughts; it's the need to express said negative thoughts to people you don't know in public as if random people are going to respond favorably to them. Context is important; friends and/or coworkers thinking negatively about your attire and promptly telling you so is different from some dickheaded biker doing the same thing in a restroom for no reason other than to express his dumb opinion NO ONE asked for.

As I said, I wish the biker had more tact. But it’s probably part of the growing pains in terms of gaining acceptance. Not everyone will like what we’re wearing but if their criticism was constructive, then we should be all smiles as well.

But how does one go about giving constructive criticism to someone, especially a person they don't know, who most likely won't care to hear it? How does that work?

[Faldaguy]

moonshadow wrote: ↑Sat May 27, 2023 7:47 am

There is something to be said for "southern hospitality"....

by Barleymower » Sun May 28, 2023 2:16 am

This side of the pond does not have the same traditions like biscuits in gravy but similar acts of respect are disappearing or have mostly disappeared.

I have not put in a lot of research into why our society has gone in the direction is has because I have family to provide for which takes up most of my time. I have made some observations which I know to be true and I don't care too much if people say I'm wrong:

The main culprit is consumerism. The mistaken belief that economic growth driven by ordinary people buying goods is right. Economic growth was driven by those who want to profit from the ordinary people and now blame the same people for mess in which we find ourselves.
Consumerism is to blame for all the loss of civility. Stupid people have been encouraged to consume as much as possible and humans being such greedy animals have rushed to the trough and forgotten everything that is important. Like respect for one's elders and the dead.

Others here have continued the thread with a focus on the unsolicited comment from "biker dude". If you have not, take a gander at my addition to the Sightings in the WILD today: Where I faced a similar dilemma, but with a twist -- what was I to say to the guy wearing a kilt, no shirt, biker boots, and two open carry guns? He was wearing a skirt (kilt) -- but the rest left a lot to be desired in my view. Maybe the best was the default result, no contact and no comment; on the other hand I like to affirm support for those few MIS we do see in public.

Back to Barleymower's observation about consumerism bringing about the death of courtesy: I would suggest a related foundational explanation -- "INEQUALITY" that has grown to extremes this past half century to the point where will have our first "Trillionaire individuals" soon. It is the inequality that drives much of our social stresses, be it on your block, in your workplace, your community or your country. Capitalism alone is inherently flawed and the perceived need of growth exacerbates the inequality leading to much of what ails us -- from rude folk and shootings in public venues to contrived wars abroad. Although this aspect of consumerism may be a factor in diminishing courtesy, it has not yet annihilated it -- we still have some nice folks around!

[STEVIE]

what was I to say to the guy wearing a kilt, no shirt, biker boots, and two open carry guns?

Definitely an American issue but the guns are irrelevant to the answer.
What the guy was wearing is none of your or anyone else's business.
No ONE has the right to offer their unsolicited views on someone else's clothing.
Skirt Cafe is meant to stand for fashion freedom or has that day passed?
As for our "biker", a conversation between him and the kilted gunslinger could be very interesting.
Steve.

I just read the sighting thread. I well understand that you'd be uneasy. If the guy had spotted you it is just possible that he'd have been effusive in his compliments. As for "kilt" accoutrements, weapons including firearms can be acceptable in the "kit". Not in the diluted version of today but the "Kilt" has long been seen as a warrior's garment and everyone needs the tools of their trade. The Skean Dhu, the knife tucked into the kneesock is the last vestige of an array of weapons associated with the Highlanders and more recently the Scots regiments of the British army. In a nutshell this has awarded the Kilt a macho status renowned throughout the world. Just be glad that you did not try to point out that the kilt is a skirt to this dude!

[ScotL]

Again, why should that even matter? He saw what @SkirtedWalker was wearing and made an undignified remark because of it. You can't find "common ground" with two "civilized" individuals when one of them is being the exact opposite of civil.

Good. I wouldn't want to associate myself with such a judgemental prick — which would be a lot of people on this planet. Then again, I'm not any better, so maybe you're right on that front.

Also, you were in a kilt, so I know you looked more presentable than that waste of space of human trash.

But how does one go about giving constructive criticism to someone, especially a person they don't know, who most likely won't care to hear it? How does that work?

Only skirtedwalker knows what this biker man was truly like. We are all speculating here.

But stating he is the “opposite of civil” and a “judgmental prick” and a “waste of space of human trash” is making a lot of assumptions. If we make the assumptions that both the other person is this horrible and their comments reflect hatred towards the fact a man is wearing a skirt, we draw lines in the sand and ensure a fight.

I believe I was very clear that he should’ve expressed himself better. His opinion is not wrong because opinions reflect what the man is thinking. Thus if he is thinking it, that’s his opinion. That does NOT mean his opinion means anything more than his opinion and does NOT mean his opinion reflects the truth. I could have the opinion that the Earth is flat but science doesn’t care what I think. A flat earth would be my true opinion but I am still wrong about the true facts. Sometimes we mistake opinions for facts but shouldn’t.

I wish the biker had expressed his opinion differently. Would we have been as upset in our assumptions of this biker if he had asked why skirtedwalker was wearing a dress and after hearing the reasons stated I don’t like the look but you do you?

We have to accept that the entire world will not like men wearing skirts. I’ve heard people express their opinions that women shouldn’t wear pants. I believe we fight to allow anyone the acceptance to wear anything they want.

So some people will dislike our skirted outfits.

Again I speak only for myself, but I will have trouble differentiating them disliking me for wearing a skirt versus them disliking how the outfit looks.

I hope I have the courage to discuss my opinions calmly without assuming they are uncivilized, judgmental wastes of space human trash.

I hope these conversations will at worst end with an agreement to disagree on if the outfit looks good but an agreement that we should all wear what we like.

I know there will be times when the other person won’t be considerate. At these times, I hope I always maintain the high road and disarm them with the question of “why can’t I wear what I like” and “why do you care so much?”

In the end, I remain hopeful that we all don’t judge each other harshly for having opinions that don’t perfectly align with ours. Therefore, civil discussions can occur without judging the book by the cover.

[Coder]

I believe I was very clear that he should’ve expressed himself better. His opinion is not wrong because opinions reflect what the man is thinking. Thus if he is thinking it, that’s his opinion.

I think the bigger discussion here is why does he feel the need to vocalize those opinions? We aren’t talking about a life or death scenario where the opinion could save someone’s life (ie, “I think it’s a bad idea to provoke a zebra”). He had a negative opinion - he should keep it to himself. Think of it as verbal diarrhea. If someone is walking around in whatever outfit, who knows the reason, unless you are complimenting them on it, keep your mouth shut. Be nice. I’m not suggesting replying in kind - it’s best to just ignore these things.

[crfriend]

I think the bigger discussion here is why does he feel the need to vocalize those opinions?

Precisely. What conceivable good can come from making a remark to someone without provocation that might wound the other party. I'd posit precisely no good. You might feel big and proud of yourself, but in that you're belittling someone else and that points up your true colours.

Be ethical in all cases -- even if it occasionally puts you at a disadvantage in this very non-ethical world.

[ScotL]

I believe I was very clear that he should’ve expressed himself better. His opinion is not wrong because opinions reflect what the man is thinking. Thus if he is thinking it, that’s his opinion.

I think the bigger discussion here is why does he feel the need to vocalize those opinions? We aren’t talking about a life or death scenario where the opinion could save someone’s life (ie, “I think it’s a bad idea to provoke a zebra”). He had a negative opinion - he should keep it to himself. Think of it as verbal diarrhea. If someone is walking around in whatever outfit, who knows the reason, unless you are complimenting them on it, keep your mouth shut. Be nice. I’m not suggesting replying in kind - it’s best to just ignore these things.

I am not suggesting he should’ve vocalized his negative opinions. But it’s unrealistic to suggest people won’t.

I wish the biker had vocalized his opinion differently. It’s ok that he doesn’t like a guy wearing a dress. I think it’s ok that he interacts with a man in a dress to hear why the man is wearing a dress as a man wearing a dress is not normally seen. I wish he had asked him why are you wearing a dress in an inquisitive manner and not the negative manner.

I wish we were all just nicer to each other. However to suggest people will all be nice is fantasy.

I hope when I am confronted by an unsolicited negative comment when wearing a skirt I 1) remain calm 2) ask the person to clarify 3) disarm them with a “why can’t I” and “why does it matter to you?” 4) respect the fact that they can disagree with me on what looks good on me and 5) remain confident to wear what I want to.

People will vocalize negative opinions. It’s just not realistic to hope they won’t. Especially as we are pushing an idea that is novel to most people. When this happens, I think it makes sense to maintain the moral high ground and 1) remain calm 2) ask the person to clarify 3) disarm them with a “why can’t I” and “why does it matter to you?” 4) respect the fact that they can disagree with me on what looks good on me and 5) remain confident to wear what I want to.

[ScotL]

I think the bigger discussion here is why does he feel the need to vocalize those opinions?

Precisely. What conceivable good can come from making a remark to someone without provocation that might wound the other party. I'd posit precisely no good. You might feel big and proud of yourself, but in that you're belittling someone else and that points up your true colours.

Be ethical in all cases -- even if it occasionally puts you at a disadvantage in this very non-ethical world.

Here’s my concern.

A person sees a man wearing a dress/skirt and thinks what? He’s gay. He’s non-binary. He’s trans. Which of these describe you Carl?

I don’t know you well enough to say but from what I gather from your posts, none of the three are the reasons you wear skirts/dresses.

I am in no way believing they or we should “belittle” anyone. Quite the contrary.

But if directly confronted in a way that a response could be warranted, silence could confirm you are gay, non-binary or trans.

If you are either of these three things, great. If you’re not, and you write posts bemoaning why only these three options are considered, how does the fourth option come in to being?