Free Stuff ????

[Fred in Skirts]

free stuff 1.jpg

[Uncle Al]

Right on the money

Uncle Al

[crfriend]

There's one big problem with the above. It doesn't show the return on tax that the average citizen receives. In all of the countries listed above, health CARE is pretty much provided for, as are proper safety-nets to support the folks that fall upon hard times.

Now, how does the USA compare. The last time I worked it out, my yearly tax burden wes over 50% of my income (between 53 and 55 percent depending on methodology), and I received precisely nothing in return for it -- entirely wasted money amounting to more than half my income. And I am not alone. With each and every "tax cut" I have seen my tax liability rise, not fall -- and I still receive precisely nothing. I call this a losing proposition.

There's a reason why the working class in the USA is almost extinct in the wild; they cannot afford to live any longer and fall into abject poverty. Is this what anybody reasonable would call a proper society?

Please think twice before posting political propaganda. It's not helpful to 99.995% of the US population who are struggling to keep their heads above water or who have already drowned.

[Jim]

The last time I worked it out, my yearly tax burden wes over 50% of my income (between 53 and 55 percent depending on methodology), and I received precisely nothing in return for it -- entirely wasted money amounting to more than half my income.

"Precisely nothing? You don't drive on roads paid for by taxes? Or get things delivered on those roads? I bet, if you tried, you could find other things you get for your taxes.

[happykilt]

Interesting numbers. I had to check my tax.
Last year (2022) I paid 29% taxes on all my income. I live in Finland.
If I have understood it right, I get a bit more in return than I would, if I lived "in the land of the free"...

[ScotL]

I work in academics. We hosted a visiting economics professor from I forget where U but from Europe (UK I believe by the accent I remember). He talked about health care systems around the world and which was the best.

Answer? All of them and none of them.

As in all statistics, tell me the metric you want to measure and you will find a rank list. Want to show your healthcare system is “the best?” Just find the appropriate metric and sometimes whittle out parts. He presented his work this way and showed the skeletons in different healthcare systems around the world.

When I trained near Canada, considered an awesome medical system, we had them come to us and pay cash. IF they had means. Why, cause Canada’s healthcare system rocks partly because it’s located next to the US. Once the Canadians got their initial treatment, they continued it in Canada.

So in the end, this guy said if you want to have an endless and typically pointless discussion on “who’s the best” have at it but realize the truth is way more complicated then a single listing of “the best.” Healthcare systems and economies are too complicated to be so simplistically measured. However, such rank lists by the media provide “click bait” (See Dunning Kruger effect). I’ve never forgotten his words because as Twain said there are lies, damn lies and statistics.

NOTE: I am neither arguing for nor against any country’s medical system. I am not chastising anyone on this forum or in the world or any country’s healthcare system/economy. This post should not be interpreted with negative presumptions. My intention is to discuss how single statistics like tax rate and reputations may not accurately tell the entire picture.

[moonshadow]

In all my life, I've only known hypocrites. I see them everywhere and every day, the first one I see stares back at me in the mirror in the morning, then I see other hypocrites all day long.

As an old millennial that is being told he won't get to retire, despite paying into a retirement system that the first two respondents to this thread currently enjoy, I admit to being somewhat triggered by the remark of "free stuff". But what can I do? People have a right to their opinion I guess, even if it slaps others in the proverbial face.

As for me, I've always paid full price for everything.

Yesterday I had to endure a good hours long lecture regarding how gender non-conforming people, including guys that wear skirts and dresses have no business around children because he deemed it "immoral" and offensive to his religious beliefs.

I didn't bring it up, he just started talking about it at random. But I can't say anything, because I might offend someone, and then I'd get in trouble. So I just had to sit there... and take it.

Funny that prior to that this same man spent all day cussing like a sailor, and telling anecdotes regarding his current living situation, where he lives with his girlfriend and her small son (out if wedlock, with another man's baby) But I guess those sins don't count.

Such as it is with "free stuff". Everybody wants free stuff, and nobody likes to share.

I could have went all day without seeing this stupid thread. And frankly having to read bullsh!t like this makes me want to chuck this phone and my computer in the garbage, go slip off into some mountain and never be seen again.

But it is what it is. I wish I could delete every stupid and inconsiderate thing I've ever had to witness in my life, but I can't, and I have to live with that.

I remember the innocence of childhood, I miss those days.... back when I used to think that people actually cared for one another... what a crock of horse-sh!t...

[Jim]

I remember the innocence of childhood, I miss those days.... back when I used to think that people actually cared for one another... what a crock of horse-sh!t...

There are people who actually care for each other. You are just focusing on those who don't. I've found this most frequently in small churches or fellowship groups, but it's not uncommon in rural areas I've lived in. Even when I wear skirts most of the time. Of course, it is by no means universal, and you can find plenty of counter-examples. This does not make the caring that really does exist go away.

[crfriend]

"Precisely nothing? You don't drive on roads paid for by taxes? Or get things delivered on those roads? I bet, if you tried, you could find other things you get for your taxes.

Indeed. Roads that haven't seen any meaningful maintenance since the prior century and which inflict damage to my automobile every time I venture out.

Now, I also "get" the worlds largest and most corrupt military-industrial complex, a huge standing army of occupation masquerading as "police" with heavy weaponry, a criminal justice system that Cotton Mather would know and love, and political leaders that'd be funny if they weren't entirely dangerous -- many of whom should be put in jail for their deeds.

What I don't have is any sort of a social safety-net, I have no decent access to health care, and no hope that I will ever see those things in remains of my lifetime.

[moonshadow]

I remember the innocence of childhood, I miss those days.... back when I used to think that people actually cared for one another... what a crock of horse-sh!t...

There are people who actually care for each other. You are just focusing on those who don't. I've found this most frequently in small churches or fellowship groups, but it's not uncommon in rural areas I've lived in. Even when I wear skirts most of the time. Of course, it is by no means universal, and you can find plenty of counter-examples. This does not make the caring that really does exist go away.

From my observation, most people only "care" when there's something in it for them. The old saying "he'd give the shirt off his back...." is thrown around a lot, but in fact, I've never actually known anyone to do such a thing....

I see a lot of people that like to drink from the "free well", but they stand guard of it, lest someone who is not from their tribe attempt to wet their lips.

As for social security... if it's going to be defunct anyway. Let's end all payments today! Why wait?

Nothing is free after all, somebody has to pay for it.

They are going to raise the retirement age, while at the same time it's been said that millennials are the first generation in recent history to have a shorter life expectancy than previous generations...

So we have to wait longer to get it, and we won't have it as long... in fact, I'm willing to bet most millennials won't see a dime... other than what we watched being siphoned from a lifetime of paycheck deductions all so a bunch of retirees from previous generations can benefit.

What was this about free stuff?

I don't know what the hell they're talking about... I don't get NOTHING for free!

[rode_kater]

free stuff 1.jpg

Ah, lies, damn lies and statistics.

Those are top marginal tax rates, the rate you would pay if you had infinite income. Most people pay much much less than that, that's why it's called a progressive tax system. Also, those rates include a chunk of health insurance, unemployment insurance, disability insurance etc. Similarly there are multiple rates of VAT and they only list the highest one.

Also, don't confuse VAT and Sales tax, they're not the same thing at all.

The gas/petrol thing is funny. Yes, petrol is more expensive here, but because US cars are on average much less efficient, we actually pay about the same per km (at least, the last time I calculated it).

Why am I even responding to this? Oh yes, I remember. Because the idea that taxation is a problem is bogus. Every cent collected is spent somewhere, it doesn't vanish. Once you've fallen for the framing "tax is bad" no amount of figures will change your mind.

[Jim]

As for social security... if it's going to be defunct anyway. Let's end all payments today! Why wait?

If we vote for people who care, then Social Security can be expanded rather than go defunct. We just need to remove the cap which makes those who make more pay a smaller percentage.

[crfriend]

If we vote for people who care, then Social Security can be expanded rather than go defunct. We just need to remove the cap which makes those who make more pay a smaller percentage.

Therein lies the rub: we can't vote for anybody "who cares" because the electoral system is rigged (at the primary level, not the general election) such that anybody that's not "acceptable" to the oligarchs will ever reach the general election. Once in a while a renegade may slip through, but there's always a super-majority that are beholden to the oligarchs that any renegade is merely there for comic relief (viz Bernie Sanders and Elizabeth Warren). Thus, as things stand at the moment, the situation is entirely hopeless.

At least three things need to happen in the US to restore any sense of sanity to the situation:

• The earned vs unearned inversion of tax rates brought in in 1982 needs to be reversed,
• the US needs to go back to a progressive tax scheme rather than the regressive one it has now, and
• to your point, the upper limit on Social Security taxation needs to be removed utterly and a progressive system put in place.

If those were enacted into law -- effectively restoring the system that was active during the Eisenhower administration -- then much of the current problem would be erased. However, the oligarchs WILL NOT support such a thing and will command their underlings in congress to block, mostly by stalemate, the motions simply leaving them as dead bills on the floor.

[STEVIE]

Only thing that I can add is personal.
On 4 very specific occasions I have had life saving and changing brushes with the UK health system.
One is going on now and has the very great possibility of drawing a line underneath everything.
At no time has the subject of cost arisen as a question or concern.
That is in stark contrast to a lot of the dire reports that arise from other countries.
When the very rich of a nation fail to care for their impoverished neighbours there has to be something very wrong about that nation.
Anyone offended by this, not my problem.
Steve.

[moonshadow]

At no time has the subject of cost arisen as a question or concern.
That is in stark contrast to a lot of the dire reports that arise from other countries.
When the very rich of a nation fail to care for their impoverished neighbours there has to be something very wrong about that nation.

It is ironic that the political party and voting bloc in the U.S. that bills itself "pro-life" puts such a heavy cost and burden on actually staying alive.

If one can not afford medical treatment in my country... you die.

How is this pro-life?

Edit and correction.... only in extreme Republican controlled states.... pretty much all blue states and most purple ones have expanded Medicaid... a program that has already saved my daughters life.

If we lived in Tennessee, she'd be dead right now...

But okay GOP... tell me more about how "pro-life" and "Christian" you are.... if you believe that, I've got some ocean front property in Appalachia to sell you.