Gender Identity

[moonshadow]

All,

I wasn't sure where to put this, I've spent most of this day writing, and digging up photos, and finally formatting this page, as a somewhat personal essay on my thoughts regarding gender identity.

It was meant to replace a former "Gender Identity" page that I had written a few years back, that has been somewhat haphazardly edited and patched up over the years. In addition to it's somewhat "patchy" appearance, much of the former page was clearly written when I had a chip on my shoulder regarding what happened in 2016 with my former employer. As a good chunk of time has elapsed between then and now, I wanted to start from fresh and give the new page a cleaner, more pleasant, and refreshing look and feel that I believe best represents where I've been, where I'm at, and maybe a glimpse as to where I'm heading...

For the best experience, use the link (it has pictures and other formatting intact), however I will copy and paste the content of the page below:

On Gender Identity - Andrea Palumbo

Content below:

What is gender? Different dictionaries define it in different ways. In the course of my lifetime, from a small child being raised in the 1980's to a 1990's teenager, and finally a 2000's young adult, I've seen a lot of changes in our western society regarding gender and what it means to different people.


Under my basic late 20th century understanding of gender, and the way I assumed it was until I began to explore the subject, gender was quite simply tied to one's sex. Thus, if you were a male, you were a man and your gender was masculine, likewise females were women and their gender was feminine.

In my backwoods Bedford County Virginia upbringing, the idea of being a feminine man was certainly possible, but not realistically practical if said man wanted to actually be a functioning participant in society. Of course, the notion of a masculine woman, or masculine girl was completely accepted. There were even friendly labels we'd apply to these girls or women, "Tomboy" comes to mind. However, on the flip side, there were no friendly names for feminine men or boys. Often in these cases, people would resort to pejoratives such as "sissy", "faggot", Nancy-boy", etc. Whereas it was generally understood that "Tomboys" were to be celebrated and "Sissies" were to be ridiculed.

That was my understanding of the situation from my youth growing up in the 80's and 90's. During my early youth, I honestly had no idea that "feminine men", crossdressers, transsexuals, or transgender people even really existed outside of the most radical of circumstances. My first glimpse into the world of gender non-conforming males was through the early 1990's internet, as well as the occasional movie or Hollywood production that would depict these individuals as some sick twisted joke, and nobody to be taken seriously nor respect.


Myself, being a teenage youth who had never really heard of nor considered such notions really never took the time to understand what I was witnessing either way. Honestly, I can't remember at what point in my life I began to realize that transgender people are more than the butt of jokes, or people to be avoided. I believe I began to learn these new ideas around the time I found the Wiccan religious practice and perhaps read about it among certain Pagan internet forums, books, and other publications. Witches are often known to buck established societal expectations, including, but not limited to, western Judea-Christian gender roles.

As a child and teenager I would sometimes vex over why it was acceptable for a girl to wear trousers, but a boy couldn't wear a pretty dress, a skirt, or even other minor practices such as grow his hair out or put a flower in it. Indeed, I was occasionally teased by others in my age group for being effeminate in some regards. I


had a love of flowers and other pretty things, I was generally passive, never one to seek a physical altercation, never really into competitive sports (in fact, I HATED sports.. all of them), and would often befriend and hang out with other girls. I can remember when the local Bedford Virginia GoodWill opened, and I'd sometimes walk through the dress and skirt aisle and just fantasize about what it might be like to don one of those beautiful garments and walk around freely in society. When I got my first job, on a few occasions I almost talked myself into taking one of my paychecks and making a discreet purchase, but I never did.

Around 2010 when I turned away from the established and organized "Christian Religion" and began to explore the Pagan path, I purchased a custom made Witches Robe that I still have to this day. I would sometimes carry the robe in the trunk of my car into the woods, and change out in privacy to perform some eccentric ritual, maybe walk around the wooded trails for a bit wearing my robe. I never had the nerve to wear it out in public, but I still loved the way the robe looked at felt draped over my body.



It wouldn't be until I reached the age of 35 years old, living in the small mountain town of Damascus Virginia, situated right on the Appalachian Trail that I would witness occasional male hikers walking the trail with skirts and sometimes dresses on. I never knew why they did this, but shortly thereafter I began to really consider the notion of wearing skirts and other feminine clothes. "Why not?", I'd wonder. Upon witnessing these hikers casually wearing the clothes they wished, appearing so free in their lives, I finally worked up the courage to buy a skirt, which turned out to be a blue Macabi skirt. The skirt quickly met with my wife's approval and soon additional skirts were purchased, finally in short order other feminine garments and accessories would be added, from women's tops (shirts) women's shoes (flats), necklaces, bracelets, hair bands, etc. I'd sometimes paint my finger and toe nails.

All the while I'd occasionally contemplate on where I am heading with all this new exploration. Was I on the path of womanhood? How much longer before I was seeking out hormone replacement therapy, and living my life as a full time woman? Honestly, I don't think I ever really desired such an outcome. Really I just wanted to be myself and express myself freely. I've never really called myself a "man", but I also know I'm not a "woman" either. I mean, of course, I am a male, and for all intents and purposes, I am… a "man", but what exactly makes a "man" in western society anyway?




This has been the subject of much study, contemplation, and soul searching on my part for pretty much my entire life. From my mid 30's I had considered pretty much all possibilities. I went through a "gender fluid" phase in my late 30's in response to some issues I was having in my life with a former employer where I sought refuge in the "protected class" of the transgender umbrella, though this endeavor was somewhat moot as gender identity wasn't a protected class under Virginia state law at the time. Nevertheless, I figured it would connect me with a community where I could find support.



Ultimately that community would never find me, and to this day, I've explored the notions of gender mostly solitary, save for the occasional writings and musings of other members of one of my most visited and engaging websites for other males (men) who like to wear skirts, dresses, and other feminine attire while still maintaining their "masculine" gender (save for a few). The website is called Skirt Café. I've been a member there since mid 2015 and it's really helped me to explore this part of my spirit and soul.

So as of this writing, I'm 42 years old, it's early spring 2023 and where am I today? Well, last October, my wife and I made a mutual decision for unrelated matters to legally change both our names, (a more detailed explanation into this is documented here --(link). When we sat down and considered what our new names should be, I revealed that I was always drawn to the feminine name "Andrea", but had never really seriously considered it. We had already agreed that our last name would be "Palumbo", the maiden name of my Great-Grandmother on my mother's side. Palumbo is an Italian name and I would quickly learn that "Andrea" is actually an Italian form of "Andrew" (my original name) and thus is considered gender masculine in Italian culture! Considering I really didn't have a problem with my name "Andrew", "Andrea" seemed like a perfect fit to my new Italian surname "Palumbo". And on October 24th 2022, "Andrea Pearl Palumbo" was "born".

Upon legally changing the names, I decided that I'd embrace the "nonbinary" gender identity due to extensive soul searching over the course of my life, and marked the box on state documents. It should be noted however that on my passport application I did check "male" as I realize other countries may not be particularly friendly with alternative gender identities.




For several weeks after the name change I would vex over how to pronounce the name "Andrea", should I use the masculine Italian pronunciation "Awn-drre-ya" *roll the r's*, or the feminine American version "Ann-dree-a". I knew I'd have to pick one pretty quick as mixing them up in different social situations could lead to confusion down the road. About a month later, I would settle on what I considered a perfect solution: why not combine the two? And so I began pronouncing my name "Ann-dre-ya". I encourage people to call me "Andrea", "Andrew", or "Andy", whichever they prefer. I do not consider "Andrew" as a "deadname". My mother named me Andrew after the biblical disciple of Christ, and it is a name I'm happy with and proud if. It remains a part of my past and my future. Finding a masculine Italian word for Andrew that is also feminine in the English language was a match made in heaven. Mom picked well.

"Pearl" is clearly feminine with no masculine varieties or versions in any culture that I can find. And that's okay. I lean heavily on my feminine nature, and so having a highly feminine middle name was very suitable for me. And of course, "Palumbo" has already been explained, however more details on the exact reasons I was drawn to my Great-Grandmothers maiden name is written about in my Spirit Book.




So what about all of this? Am I transgender? And I cisgender? Am I something else altogether? The concepts and notions of gender are a matter that have been widely and fiercely debated over the last decade particularly. Anti-trans people seem to be adamantly opposed that gender can be anything other that something tied to your sex, and of course, transgender people and trans-allies are on the opposite end of that spectrum, with some going so far as to say that claiming you're transgender means that your sex also matches your identity, thus a transgender woman is biologically female. Of course, such an extreme can not hold up to basic and logical scrutiny. There are intersex people that are the exception to the rule, however they do not make up the vast majority of transgender people.

So where does that leave the notion of what it means to be transgender? What is gender anyway? Of course, the internet is bursting with articles, writings, blog post, etc., detailing both sides of the gender argument. In this examination I have endeavored to avoid any recent writings regarding the topic, as I realize the meanings and definitions of words can change over time. It is often cited by the anti-trans group that the concepts and notions of "transgender" are a recent phenomenon and nothing to be taken seriously, also arguing that transgender people are nothing more than the "latest fad" and that this too shall pass.

So what do the old books and dictionaries say?

Going all the way back to "The Modern Webster Dictionary" 1933, it is written:
GENDER: n. the grammatical distinction of sex.

Seems pretty basic. It should be noted this is a very small "desktop" dictionary from the early 1930's and the definitions in the book are of the most basic variety.


Manly Palmer Hall
In Manly Palmer Hall's book "Old Testament Wisdom". he writes:

"Let us first examine the word God as it is used throughout the first chapter in Genesis. The word in Hebrew is not God or Jah, or Jehovah, but Elohim. The Anglo-Saxon word for God is a reverent but entirely insufficient term with which to convey the true meaning of Elohim. In Hebrew, this is an androgynous term strongly implying a combination of male and female attributes, and also, by its termination, the word is plural. It would be more correct to say, therefore, that Elohim means, "The Male-Female" creators," representing a host, or at least a group, or powers, symbolically described as a septenary, and not under any condition a single personal deity. "

It is too bad that Manly Hall is no longer with us today, I'd be very interested to hear his opinion on the matters of gender and particularly transgender ideology. The statement above seems to indicate to me that the Hebrew understanding of "God" was complex to say the least.



Taken at face value, I can almost come to the conclusion that the understanding of the Hebrew God is that this entity was without gender as we know it. And that would seem to be sensible as why would the creator of the universe and everything in it have a gender anyway? This is a question that has always vexed me growing up, from the moment I learned of "the birds and the bees", I often wondered, "how is there only a God the father", but never a mother?". I knew that from the mother or female, all things are born, and in a theology such as modern day American (western) Christianity, this seems to be a considerable hole in the overall story.

My explorations into Paganism, Wicca, and the like seemed to help answer some of these questions, with their emphasis on the "great Mother Goddess", however this still does not reconcile the obvious issue within the Judea-Christian tradition, which, save for perhaps the "Mother Mary" in Catholicism seems to be missing a "Mother figure".


Of course even many Protestants will claim that "The Church" is the "Bride of Christ", I've also heard of the "Holy Spirit" being God's feminine aspect in the "Trinity", though not all Christians believe this.

Of course, all of this is still overlooking the obvious: Who's to say that the universe was hatched by some biological sexual union anyway? And even if it was the result of a sexual union between a God and a Goddess, what then came before this God and Goddess? Who were their parents? What created them?

It seems to lead down an extensive rabbit hole with no clear answer either way. I'm inclined to believe that what we conceive to be "God", being the hypothetical creator of the universe was likely without mortal "gender" as we understand it today. And that this "God" figure is something more, something that we can not contemplate with our mortal, limited human minds. Perhaps this was a similar conclusion reached by early Hebrew writers and story tellers in their evolving understanding of "God", but it is only speculation on my part.

If we take the above into consideration, along with the overall notion that the universe likely doesn't seem to care what gender roles we apply in our personal lives, then one must almost conclude that "gender", at least the human form of it, seems to be somewhat arbitrary. In nature, there are two basic roles of the sexes, the males inseminate the females and the females bear the young. It would seem that everything outside of that is the result of eons of human custom and tradition.





So that brings us back to where we started from, with regards to custom and tradition… back to the dictionaries and encyclopedias:

Webster's New Universal Unabridged Dictionary, Second Edition (1983) says the following regarding gender:

1) in grammar (a) the classification by which nouns and pronouns (and often accompanying modifiers) are grouped and inflected or changed in form, in relation to sex or their lack of it: gender is natural when, as in English, Persian, and Armenian, animate being and inanimate things are classified as masculine, feminine, and neuter (e.g., man, masc,; woman, fem.; tree, neut.) gender is grammatical when as in the majority of languages possessing it, ,beings and things are classified according to remotely animistic, psychological, or formal associations (e.g, Anglo-Saxon wif, German weib, woman, neut.; Latin fluvius, river, masc. [but flumen, stream, neut.]; Latin prius, pear tree, fem): English, now virtually free from sound inflection, shows gender chiefly by pronoun reference; (b) any one of such groupings; (c) any gender like system of classification, as the caste-system of the Dravidian languages.

That was a mouthful, and admittedly a little confusing. However, upon typing that out it becomes clear that as far as Webster is concerned in 1983, for the most part it would be fair to say that in English speaking systems, gender was mostly tied to sex, save for specific circumstances. However, once we move beyond simple matters of sex and consider the characteristics of various people, particularly transgender people, things get somewhat hazy. For example, would we consider a transgender woman who has not undergone a sex change (also known as "bottom surgery") a biological female? No. However, despite this transgender woman in question being a biological male, this particular individual exhibits all of the characteristics of being of the feminine gender, and even under the conservative definition above, one would conclude that at the very least the transgender woman in question is "gender feminine", and would likely be correctly identified with feminine pronouns (she/her/hers). But is she a woman? This is where it gets a little hazy, and I still struggle trying to give a thoughtful and logical answer for this. Traditional thinking suggest that generally speaking only biological females are to be considered "women", however the complex and somewhat arbitrary concepts of gender among various human customs would seem to turn this logic on it's head. The short answer seems to be, "it's complicated".




Adding an additional layer of confusion to this concept is the fact that gender roles among various human customs and traditions appear to be very arbitrary at their source. After all, among these cultures and customs, who decided that "women do this" and "men do that"? In most of these cases, these practices and activities that may have been traditionally assigned to women or men (e.g. women would stay at home and tend the home and children, men would leave the home in search of food and labor) are certainly interchangeable. There is no reason, for example, that a man can't stay at home and tend the children while the women makes the living outside the home. Granted, a system of clearly defined gender roles in family life may have had its obvious advantages back in a time before modern conveniences and lifestyles made home life much more easier with the invention of modern day home appliances and other gadgets to free up the woman's time. Later with the rise of capitalism in western countries, many of these women would leave the home in search of outside work for additional household income. Shortly thereafter, women working outside of the home would be less for "extra income" and more a primary means of family survival as over the decades and into the present day, it is very difficult for a family to survive without the man and woman both working outside of the home, often times in roles that can be performed by both sexes. It is not uncommon to see female C.E.O.s, construction workers, welders, and tradeswomen, and likewise it is not uncommon to see male nurses, home aides, secretaries, dispatchers, and other jobs traditionally associated with women exclusively.





All this gives rise to another potential problem that I have considered over the years, if gender is more closely regarded less as a matter of sex and more as a matter of masculine or feminine traits, then considering the millions if not billions of various characteristics and traits that humans can engage in, all with their traditionally "masculine" and "feminine" connotations, it is fair to say that there isn't a person alive that is completely "masculine" or "feminine" and thus, one might conclude that in some manner of speaking, all people are transgender? But this can't be right, and clearly most people would rebuke this notion, and rightfully so. Not only does labeling all people transgender eliminate the entire gender identity of "cisgender" (where your sex matches your gender), but it also significantly waters down what it means to be transgender, and thus in both aspects completely erases an enormous distinction in the human condition.

But the question remains then, "where does one draw the line between cisgender and transgender". Or in other words, at what point exactly does a cisgender person cease to be cisgender and become transgender? If a woman takes a job outside of the home, is she now a transgender man? If a man takes a job as a nurse, or stays at home and takes care of the children while the mother works is he a transgender woman? I think virtually everyone in the transgender debate, would agree that this is NOT the case.

The Encyclopedia Britannica, 1998 edition on gender writes:

In language, a phenomenon in which the word of a certain part of speech, usually nouns, require the agreement, or concord through grammatical marking (or inflection) of various other words related to them in a sentence.

It continues toward the end:
Gender glasses in such languages may include animate beings, inanimate objects, plants, animals, tools, and objects of a particular shape.

Once again, we are assigning gender to random objects. This seems strikingly arbitrary, and one wonders what are the sources of these gender classifications.

Below the explanation of gender, the encyclopedia also has a short article on gender identity, here are some of the main points:

gender identity, an individual's self-conception as being male or female, as distinguished from actual biological sex. For most persons, gender identity and biological characteristics are the same. There are, however, circumstances in which an individual experiences little to no connection between sex and gender; in transsexualism, for example, biological sexual characteristics are distinct and unambiguous, but the effected person believes that he or she is, or ought to be, of the opposite sex. Gender identity is not fixed at birth; both physiological and social factors contribute to the early establishment of a core identity, which is modified and expanded by social factors as the child matures.

It continues on with regards to the parent's role:
Parents teach sex-appropriate behavior to their children from an early age and this behavior is reinforced as the child grows older and enters a wider social world.



This sheds a little more light on the phenomenon of gender in the modern world, along with some greater understanding of how children grow and eventually gravitate into their own identity. This may lend some credence to the idea that indeed, as a child matures, notions of transgender characteristics should be taken seriously and not hindered by parents or the community (State) in general.

To conclude all of this, it is safe to say that the notions of gender are indeed complicated. As the human species continues to grow and develop as a people and society, ideas will ultimately manifest themselves, some ideas will work to the betterment of humanity, others will be a hindrance. There are many people who believe that the very notions of what it means to be transgender will be the very undoing of society, others say that these notions may be a natural progression of human evolution.

One thing is for certain, when it comes to transgenderism, this is a genie that we can not put back in the bottle, despite the best efforts of certain policy makers and conservative minds. Culture, life, and society slowly eeks and claws its way forward, despite all efforts to restrain it. It is not reasonable nor logical for certain people to assume that we are living in the pinnacle of human achievement and that further advancement of the human condition, and that it means to be our authentic selves should be repressed. Indeed, repression is impossible. You can not stifle or kill an idea. You can only shove it underground for short periods of time, but humans have always yearned to be free in mind, body, and sprite, and ideas, both good and bad can be quite stubborn if not impossible to eliminate.

The best thing I think we can possibly do at this juncture is to embrace change provided it is bringing no realistic harm to anyone. People should, and ought to be free to explore what gender means to them, both cis and trans alike. The concepts are at the core of what it means to be a person, but more importantly a free person. As I've indicated in previous writings, as well as touched on above, these concepts can be deeply spiritual as well.

May you walk in peace, and remember, "to thine own self be true".

Kind Regards,


Andrea Pearl Palumbo
April 1st 2023

[Barleymower]

An interesting read, Moon.
I was particularly taken by this part:
"It wouldn't be until I reached the age of 35 years old, living in the small mountain town of Damascus Virginia, situated right on the Appalachian Trail that I would witness occasional male hikers walking the trail with skirts and sometimes dresses on. I never knew why they did this, but shortly thereafter I began to really consider the notion of wearing skirts and other feminine clothes. "Why not?", I'd wonder. Upon witnessing these hikers casually wearing the clothes they wished, appearing so free in their lives"

These shows what men would wear if it was allowed.

[moonshadow]

These shows what men would wear if it was allowed.

It also shows that the best thing we can do to support other men who secretly desire to explore alternative clothing choices is to simply get out there and wear what we want!

If I had never moved to Damascus and witnessed other male hikers freely wearing skirts, I would have likely never worked up the nerve myself. Talk about butterfly effect!

A fun take.... it seems Paul wasn't the only one to achieve a life changing event "on the road to Damascus"!

[ScotL]

Takes a lot of courage to bear one’s soul. So congratulations on doing something 99.9% of us will never have the guts to do. Especially the manly men who must rigidly cling to the macho definition of what it is to be a man.

Begs the question though. You say you don’t feel like a man or a woman. But do you not believe you feel like either gender based on the definition of a “normal” man or woman? Definitions that are derived on peer pressure and archaic norms passed down on what’s proper? As if somehow we all should fit into one of two boxes and never ever cross that line I to the other box?

[Barleymower]

These shows what men would wear if it was allowed.

It also shows that the best thing we can do to support other men who secretly desire to explore alternative clothing choices is to simply get out there and wear what we want!

If I had never moved to Damascus and witnessed other male hikers freely wearing skirts, I would have likely never worked up the nerve myself. Talk about butterfly effect!

A fun take.... it seems Paul wasn't the only one to achieve a life changing event "on the road to Damascus"!

Please excuse 'these' grammar
I will add that I don't think this applies to just other men. It applies to ALL men. Go MIS.

[moonshadow]

Begs the question though. You say you don’t feel like a man or a woman. But do you not believe you feel like either gender based on the definition of a “normal” man or woman? Definitions that are derived on peer pressure and archaic norms passed down on what’s proper? As if somehow we all should fit into one of two boxes and never ever cross that line I to the other box?

Ah, that is the crux of the matter in my opinion, and it is touched on briefly in the essay. Indeed, I can't think of anyone that is 100% "masculine" or "feminine". And to be fair, I don't know that that's really ever changed throughout human history. So you are correct, it does beg the question, and frankly that's the question I have struggled with for many, many years.

Speaking strictly for myself and myself only, I have no doubt that I am a male, and I accept that insofar as modern western society is concerned, I am "a man", even when I'm not dressing or behaving like one. Thus even to this day I still use masculine pronouns he/him/his despite many enby [nonbinary] people using they/them/theirs. One of the major reasons for this is that I really just can't get behind that. I know that sentiment gets me in trouble with the nonbinary community, but I can't help it, to me, "they/them/theirs" is improper in the singular with only specific exceptions. BUT... that doesn't mean that I insist on using pronouns that enby people might find offensive. Why? Because I try not to be a jerk. I would have been more satisfied had a better pronoun caught on with regards to enby people, but ultimately, the world doesn't cater to my whims, and rightfully so! I'm nobody special.

As my daughter and I were discussion the other day, I respect pronouns even if I don't fully understand or agree with them for the same reason I still bow my head at public invocation calls when I find myself in the middle of one. I personally don't agree with public prayer, it's just not my thing, but I at least go through the motions out of respect. Anyway, I digress.

I have a suspicion that at some point within the next thousand years, if things keep going the way they are going, and assuming we don't drive ourselves to extinction, I can foresee a world basically without established "gender" tied to the sex. In many manner of speaking, we're already somewhat there. We only call ourselves "cis" or "trans" gendered because that's the label we wish to apply to ourselves, but the fact remains that with each passing year, what separates masculinity from femininity is becoming increasingly blurred.

In fact, I've already observed that most women I see out and about express themselves VERY masculinely compared to just twenty years ago. Buzzed hair, masculine dress, little to no makeup, and of course, they are engaging in activities typically associated with men. I'm also seeing this, albeit to a somewhat lesser extent with many modern men. In essence, gender seems to be being erased altogether! When you get right down to it, in theory, there are cis gender and trans gender people, but in practice, it seems the vast majority of people across western culture have a more nonbinary gender expression.

How much longer before the vast majority of people just say "the hell with it" and just say "I'm not either one...". All I'm saying is that this is the point where I seem to be at currently.

It's somewhat ironic that if you went to my website and actually looked at the page, you'd be greeted with the following image:

andrea_palumbo_bibbs.jpg

Interesting that in the U.S., there are probably more women dressed similarly than many of the skirted, more feminine outfits I own. In other words, in the photo above, I am dressed like a typical American woman. It's only when I don a skirt do I become a gender anomaly.

It begs the question, did femininity change?... or did women? The same applies to men, did masculinity change?... or did men?

And at the end of the day... does it really matter?

[crfriend]

It begs the question, did femininity change?... or did women? The same applies to men, did masculinity change?... or did men?

Short answers: (1) The notion of feminity and womanhood have changed, and changed profoundly in that those now occupy much of the space that was once mainly inhabited by men. (2) The popular definition of "masculinity" has been shifting for the past few decades towards what used to be known as "machismo". This is entirely unfortunate, and has crowded a whole lot of guys into a tiny slice of the spectrum that it's likely that they don't want to be in. This is where "[rad-fem hate-speech redacted]" has its roots, as well as in radical "feminism".

It's worth recalling also that tomboys have always been celebrated, but sensitive caring men have always been frowned upon -- even though those are the ones that tend to do the real heavy-lifting at the societal layer. In short, it's become a mess, and I don't see a way out of it now because the drivers are so entrenched.

In the 100% hard-core "feminine" world, the mental state seems to approach narcissism and neuroticism, and 100% hard-core "masculine" strongly resembles psychopathy. Is really the way forward? I do not believe so. We need to return men to being able to occupy their traditional share of traits of human beings rather than shoving them into the coffin-sized box of machismo.

And, "Does it matter at the end of the day?" Yes, it certainly does.

[ScotL]

Speaking strictly for myself and myself only, I have no doubt that I am a male, and I accept that insofar as modern western society is concerned, I am "a man", even when I'm not dressing or behaving like one.

Then I have to ask, why don’t you think you are a man when you aren’t dressing or acting like an archaic definition of a man? A definition that we all know is overly simplistic and not granular enough to capture the many faces of manhood?

Aren’t you just a modern man?

Not dragging your knuckles but acting upon the interests and advancements of modern society?

[moonshadow]

Speaking strictly for myself and myself only, I have no doubt that I am a male, and I accept that insofar as modern western society is concerned, I am "a man", even when I'm not dressing or behaving like one.

Then I have to ask, why don’t you think you are a man when you aren’t dressing or acting like an archaic definition of a man? A definition that we all know is overly simplistic and not granular enough to capture the many faces of manhood?

Aren’t you just a modern man?

Not dragging your knuckles but acting upon the interests and advancements of modern society?

An excellent question, and one that I absolutely have a solid answer for...

"Aren’t you just a modern man? " ... I am.. what I am.

You see, "gender identity" for me is less about politics and social customs and more a matter of the "soul" or spiritual. It's the stuff inside that makes us more than the sum of our parts. The easiest way I can explain it is how I explained it to an actual person of the Christian faith a while back:

I asked the man, when he dies and goes to heaven (presumably), once his mortal body and everything that made him a human "male" is rotting in the ground, what then makes him a man? He responded that he is a man because he just knows he is, he feels like one, etc. I then pointed out, that he too "knows what it's like to experience gender outside of sex".

As a male, many consider me a "man" regardless of how feminine I may be and thus, tie "manhood" strictly to biological sex. On the other end of the argument, there are those that consider being a "man" as having less to do with biological sex and more to do with masculinity, which is generally considered the domain of "gender". The latter is where things get a little fuzzy with virtually everyone as generally "sex" is very easy to define (you either have a penis or you don't) [0] whereas "masculinity" is at it core, much more arbitrary.

I'm going to meld in a comment Carl added here, " "Does it matter at the end of the day?" Yes, it certainly does."
I can't be so sure it does matter. Gender roles are always shifting, and will continue to do so. I can respect that the label (cis and trans) matter to the vast majority of people, and the very concept of masculinity and femininity is a major part of the identity of cis and trans people alike. Indeed, I'm sure most members here would agree that their masculinity is very closely tied to their identity regardless of the clothes they wear, in fact, to be fair- it is basically the core mission of Skirt-Cafe to champion and support men who want to wear skirts all the while not forsaking their masculinity in the process.

To be fair to Carl, I completely understand where he is coming from, but he must also understand that he is viewing the situation from the perspective of a cisgendered man whose gender identity is in alignment of his sex. In his mind, he see's no conflict, males, men, and masculinity can share the domain with skirts and dresses. And he is exactly correct! There is indeed no logical reason why a masculine man can not wear a skirt if he wants to, it is after all, just a piece of fabric. Skirts only have "gender" because we, as a society have assigned gender to them, it is... arbitrary. Most members here desire to reclaim skirts into the masculine fold, and that is our angle here at SkirtCafe.

But he, and people like him must also understand that I'm looking at the situation from a different perspective, from a "nonbinary" perspective, and for people like myself it is less about bringing objects like skirts into the realm of masculinity, but instead watering down the masculine/feminine connotations altogether. To people like myself, it increasingly just doesn't matter.

To put it another way, myself and people like me (like minded enbies) are not trying to change the rules, we're just writing our own. In my observation of many enby people I've read about or spoken with, it seems we don't worry about "masculine this" or "feminine that", we just are.....

In many regards, my personal mission really doesn't align with the core values of Skirt Cafe and I acknowledge this. I almost don't fit in, and I understand why. Much like Elvis, too much of this to be that and too much of that to be this... such is the dilemma of the enby... we don't really seem to fit in anywhere. But frankly, I just consider so many of you friends and I have so much respect for everyone here. The internet has turned into such a sewer, it's so nice to have somewhere to turn with sensible and intelligent discussions I can participate in.

"..why don’t you think you are a man when you aren’t dressing or acting like an archaic definition of a man?" Sometimes I do, though it should be noted that throughout my entire life I have often questioned what exactly it means to be "a man", and these questions and vexing notions predate any intentional feminine expression I have exhibited (wearing skirts). Indeed, I have struggled with these concepts basically from the time I entered puberty, as I began to notice other boys grow into typical American "macho men", and seemed to leave me in the dust. Yes, I have always wondered where my place was in the grand scheme of western culture.

"Not dragging your knuckles but acting upon the interests and advancements of modern society?" No worries friend! I embrace these challenges. They help remind me every day that regardless of how confident I am with my place in the universe that indeed, I "don't have it all figured out". It's very humbling and at the same time, extremely character building. I expected to be challenged on my essay, and I embrace the discussion, it's how I learn and grow. I would have been disappointed if everyone either ignored the thread or agreed with me. Note that in my essay, I tried to write it in the context that I ask more questions than give statements. This is an exploratory path of mine and no, I don't have any of it figured out, and likely never will.

I will ask however to anyone participating, ask questions till your heart's content, challenge, make opposing arguments, etc. but all I ask is that nobody ever try to explain my own soul and spirit to me, or tell me they know me better than I know myself. That... I find highly offensive. I will never claim to speak for anyone else, and that is my promise to all.

Not that I'm saying you're doing this Scot, I just wanted to say it going forward as I expect this thread to be very thought provoking for myself and hopefully everyone involved.

[0] Yes, I realize that there are more than two sexes based on chromosomes, I also know that the "Y" chromosome is slowing dying in our species, but frankly this conversation is getting deep enough as it is without mixing in actual varieties of biological sex, so for the sake of simplicity, I am calling two sexes, "males have penises" and "females have vaginas", as that's honestly the most readily available information based on a simple visual examination of the subject with the naked (no pun intended) eye... Further exploration into different sexes requires laboratory testing and are not applicable to the point of the discussion I'm trying to have.

[ScotL]

And that’s what I’m wondering about. Do we have these “I don’t fit in the approved binary boxes” because we don’t fit in or because the boxes are absolute BS as evidenced by women doing typically masculine things without ridicule. I’m going with the latter.

I have a really hard time defining what the words femininity and masculinity mean. And I don’t mean according to the Oxford or Websters dictionary folks. But on a living definition of these words.

Perhaps these two words are actually the problem. Do we need them? Do they define the binary boxes that realistically fit no one? For as you say, no one has 100% typical masculine or feminine traits. And even looking at those traits associated with each word, aren’t they actually just sexist generalizations?

Perhaps these two words need to be retired.

I wouldn’t be surprised if the reason for a lot of discomfort in this world comes down to humans being stupid humans.

[Myopic Bookworm]

I like your thought-provoking essay.

I have never seriously entertained the notion of changing sex, but I have always been uncomfortable with the male stereotypes, admiring/envying skirts and long hair since I was about 6. I would currently identify as male but gender-nonconformist (some would say eccentric). I have not really embraced the term "non-binary" because, although I regard biological sex as a primarily binary thing, I would rather de-emphasize or subvert the whole "binary" thing when it comes to gender and its expression.

[Barleymower]

If you conform to present trends, if a female identifies as a man and she changes her pronouns to he/him then he is a man. If we do not respected that we become transphobic. If we acknowledge that she has become he then he can give birth.
And vice versa.
It also seems odd I know.
Personally I don't have a problem with it. If it makes a person feel whole, where's the harm?
I also don't hold with nonsense of men becoming women to enter female spaces. I think it is a red herring by haters. Who in their right mind would change the gender 24/7 to enter female spaces? Why do we need gendered bogs anyway? Women are attacked at home by their spouses or on their way home by strangers. Public toilets are just that.. public.

This was all predicted by Renton in the 1996 film Train Spotting: " In a thousand years, there will be no men and women, just w#nkers, and that's fine by me".

Renton was righter than he thought. present company excepted!

If the tech was there and they could zap me into a womens body. I'd give it go, hell yes... as long as I could go back, that is.

Please don't take my non-serious view of this issue as me not taking it seriously. For me the gender subject does not need to be talked with a long face. What I really think is: giving someone the chance to change their gender should be celebrated.

[Elisabetta]

Speaking strictly for myself and myself only, I have no doubt that I am a male, and I accept that insofar as modern western society is concerned, I am "a man", even when I'm not dressing or behaving like one.

Then I have to ask, why don’t you think you are a man when you aren’t dressing or acting like an archaic definition of a man? A definition that we all know is overly simplistic and not granular enough to capture the many faces of manhood?

Aren’t you just a modern man?

Not dragging your knuckles but acting upon the interests and advancements of modern society?

An excellent question, and one that I absolutely have a solid answer for...

"Aren’t you just a modern man? " ... I am.. what I am.

You see, "gender identity" for me is less about politics and social customs and more a matter of the "soul" or spiritual. It's the stuff inside that makes us more than the sum of our parts. The easiest way I can explain it is how I explained it to an actual person of the Christian faith a while back:

I asked the man, when he dies and goes to heaven (presumably), once his mortal body and everything that made him a human "male" is rotting in the ground, what then makes him a man? He responded that he is a man because he just knows he is, he feels like one, etc. I then pointed out, that he too "knows what it's like to experience gender outside of sex".

As a male, many consider me a "man" regardless of how feminine I may be and thus, tie "manhood" strictly to biological sex. On the other end of the argument, there are those that consider being a "man" as having less to do with biological sex and more to do with masculinity, which is generally considered the domain of "gender". The latter is where things get a little fuzzy with virtually everyone as generally "sex" is very easy to define (you either have a penis or you don't) [0] whereas "masculinity" is at it core, much more arbitrary.

I'm going to meld in a comment Carl added here, " "Does it matter at the end of the day?" Yes, it certainly does."
I can't be so sure it does matter. Gender roles are always shifting, and will continue to do so. I can respect that the label (cis and trans) matter to the vast majority of people, and the very concept of masculinity and femininity is a major part of the identity of cis and trans people alike. Indeed, I'm sure most members here would agree that their masculinity is very closely tied to their identity regardless of the clothes they wear, in fact, to be fair- it is basically the core mission of Skirt-Cafe to champion and support men who want to wear skirts all the while not forsaking their masculinity in the process.

To be fair to Carl, I completely understand where he is coming from, but he must also understand that he is viewing the situation from the perspective of a cisgendered man whose gender identity is in alignment of his sex. In his mind, he see's no conflict, males, men, and masculinity can share the domain with skirts and dresses. And he is exactly correct! There is indeed no logical reason why a masculine man can not wear a skirt if he wants to, it is after all, just a piece of fabric. Skirts only have "gender" because we, as a society have assigned gender to them, it is... arbitrary. Most members here desire to reclaim skirts into the masculine fold, and that is our angle here at SkirtCafe.

But he, and people like him must also understand that I'm looking at the situation from a different perspective, from a "nonbinary" perspective, and for people like myself it is less about bringing objects like skirts into the realm of masculinity, but instead watering down the masculine/feminine connotations altogether. To people like myself, it increasingly just doesn't matter.

To put it another way, myself and people like me (like minded enbies) are not trying to change the rules, we're just writing our own. In my observation of many enby people I've read about or spoken with, it seems we don't worry about "masculine this" or "feminine that", we just are.....

In many regards, my personal mission really doesn't align with the core values of Skirt Cafe and I acknowledge this. I almost don't fit in, and I understand why. Much like Elvis, too much of this to be that and too much of that to be this... such is the dilemma of the enby... we don't really seem to fit in anywhere. But frankly, I just consider so many of you friends and I have so much respect for everyone here. The internet has turned into such a sewer, it's so nice to have somewhere to turn with sensible and intelligent discussions I can participate in.

"..why don’t you think you are a man when you aren’t dressing or acting like an archaic definition of a man?" Sometimes I do, though it should be noted that throughout my entire life I have often questioned what exactly it means to be "a man", and these questions and vexing notions predate any intentional feminine expression I have exhibited (wearing skirts). Indeed, I have struggled with these concepts basically from the time I entered puberty, as I began to notice other boys grow into typical American "macho men", and seemed to leave me in the dust. Yes, I have always wondered where my place was in the grand scheme of western culture.

"Not dragging your knuckles but acting upon the interests and advancements of modern society?" No worries friend! I embrace these challenges. They help remind me every day that regardless of how confident I am with my place in the universe that indeed, I "don't have it all figured out". It's very humbling and at the same time, extremely character building. I expected to be challenged on my essay, and I embrace the discussion, it's how I learn and grow. I would have been disappointed if everyone either ignored the thread or agreed with me. Note that in my essay, I tried to write it in the context that I ask more questions than give statements. This is an exploratory path of mine and no, I don't have any of it figured out, and likely never will.

I will ask however to anyone participating, ask questions till your heart's content, challenge, make opposing arguments, etc. but all I ask is that nobody ever try to explain my own soul and spirit to me, or tell me they know me better than I know myself. That... I find highly offensive. I will never claim to speak for anyone else, and that is my promise to all.

Not that I'm saying you're doing this Scot, I just wanted to say it going forward as I expect this thread to be very thought provoking for myself and hopefully everyone involved.

[0] Yes, I realize that there are more than two sexes based on chromosomes, I also know that the "Y" chromosome is slowing dying in our species, but frankly this conversation is getting deep enough as it is without mixing in actual varieties of biological sex, so for the sake of simplicity, I am calling two sexes, "males have penises" and "females have vaginas", as that's honestly the most readily available information based on a simple visual examination of the subject with the naked (no pun intended) eye... Further exploration into different sexes requires laboratory testing and are not applicable to the point of the discussion I'm trying to have.

Do you ever perhaps wonder that maybe you're two genders trapped in one? Maybe during the birth you were meant to be a particular gender but maybe the gene's didn't connect you to one solid one so maybe you're both but we're giving the body of a male.

[crfriend]

[...]But [Carl], and people like him must also understand that I'm looking at the situation from a different perspective, from a "nonbinary" perspective, and for people like myself it is less about bringing objects like skirts into the realm of masculinity, but instead watering down the masculine/feminine connotations altogether. To people like myself, it increasingly just doesn't matter.

Let's be careful lest we fall into the very PC modern world. In this regard, it's worth recalling that "masculinity" and "femininity" have always shared space in the same spectrum and are an aggregation of traits and has never been a "binary" We do not need "new-think" here to describe something that has been understood for thousands of years, but has only recently been changed without warning or notice from under us. We are one species -- else breeding would be impossible, and thus we share one space -- just in varying degrees. The "binary" is a falsehood, and the sooner we embrace that the better for all involved. We do not need additional terms to describe that (although I kind of like "enby"), we do not necessarily need the trans-* "spectrum" either because we're all on that same spectrum -- all together as one species. What has happened to us that we now fail to recognise our own humanity? Face it, we're all in this together, whether we like it or not.

In many regards, my personal mission really doesn't align with the core values of Skirt Cafe and I acknowledge this. I almost don't fit in, and I understand why.

You fit in perfectly well, and don't doubt that for an instant. Men, face it, are now fighting a rear-guard action against the radical "feminists" who wish to enslave us and have the upper hand when it comes to press and media power. They'll come after me first because I have the guts to stand up and call BS on their actions -- but know well that they'll be after you in the not-too-distant future.

[moonshadow]

[...]But [Carl], and people like him must also understand that I'm looking at the situation from a different perspective, from a "nonbinary" perspective, and for people like myself it is less about bringing objects like skirts into the realm of masculinity, but instead watering down the masculine/feminine connotations altogether. To people like myself, it increasingly just doesn't matter.

Let's be careful lest we fall into the very PC modern world. In this regard, it's worth recalling that "masculinity" and "femininity" have always shared space in the same spectrum and are an aggregation of traits and has never been a "binary" We do not need "new-think" here to describe something that has been understood for thousands of years, but has only recently been changed without warning or notice from under us. We are one species -- else breeding would be impossible, and thus we share one space -- just in varying degrees. The "binary" is a falsehood, and the sooner we embrace that the better for all involved. We do not need additional terms to describe that (although I kind of like "enby"),

I think we're on the same page, or at the very least on the same chapter. It seems that where things usually fall apart in the debate is the notion of male=man female=woman... or in the case of the transgender group... male=either/or female=either/or. On this, I can see both sides of the argument.

Personally, I think gender is more a matter of philosophy rather than true/false *ahem...binary* kind of "facts". Philosophy can always be debated and interpreted many different ways by different people and cultural groups. Indeed, masculine and feminine are two distinct gender characteristics, however there is indeed overlap that changes and evolves with societal customs. There is a substantial gradient in the overlap.

In the past, there were many words to describe people who were in the middle of the "gradient", so this isn't really a "new" concept, "androgynous" comes to mind, but there have always been people who dabbled and others that completely immersed themselves in various gender roles over the centuries.

Yes... "enby" is pretty cool.

we do not necessarily need the trans-* "spectrum" either because we're all on that same spectrum -- all together as one species.

I shared a similar notion recently whereas I proposed that at some point in the future, the notions of "transgender" would become obsolete as gender roles continue to crumble with each passing generation. Soon, it won't really matter either way.

...it did not go over well in the trans* group. Turns out, that identity is pretty important to them. But to be fair, for most cis-people, their identity is important to them as well. People like their labels. Even "enby" is a label. I guess it helps to have some definition in our mind as to what exactly we are. It may not matter much to the universe, but it helps us sleep at night I suppose. Perhaps it's just part of being human... something that links us to our tribal nature.

Do you ever perhaps wonder that maybe you're two genders trapped in one? Maybe during the birth you were meant to be a particular gender but maybe the gene's didn't connect you to one solid one so maybe you're both but we're giving the body of a male.

There's no way of knowing. Like everyone else, we can only know what is in our heart.