On family and spouses "negative" reactions, emotion

[Coder]

I feel like my comments are are largely but not complete ignored. Thanks Coder I will reply.
Am I on the wrong board or too far off topic ?

Nah, you are fine.

[STEVIE]

I feel like my comments are are largely but not complete ignored. Thanks Coder I will reply.
Am I on the wrong board or too far off topic ?

Hi BM
Ironically, I spent about an hour responding to your TERF comment at stupid a.m today and sadly my connection broke so it wasn't saved.
Hence the shorter comment and the addition to the "Acceptance" thread in personal stories.
Here is the gist of it,

Steve I have a slightly different perspective.

My own wife does not come at this from any feminist angle whatsoever and I am really not aware that I have ever met a really feminist female let alone a TERF.
The other difference is that I am also unsure that the feminist movement can take the credit for the fashion freedoms women enjoy today. Historically, that was founded on social and economic changes from wars to evolution of industry in general.
Was there ever a single campaign to allow women to wear trousers like the "Burn the Bra" protests that hit the headlines? Oddly, I see plenty women in trousers but exceptionally few who go braless today.
As to my wife's reaction, this thread has made me realise something that I have overlooked since day one, her motivation. She knew very well that I liked to wear skirts before we married!
Following that, is it then logical to assume that she was "attracted" by the idea of MIS on some level?
That is a whole new can of worms that I would be reluctant to open at this stage.
The other bit was about my success this week in moving the MIS cause just a wee bit further. My family reaction could vary from complete apathy to hostility. A complete contrast to the support and well wishes from the cafe and in meat space too.
Sad but oh so true.
Steve

[Myopic Bookworm]

Was there ever a single campaign to allow women to wear trousers like the "Burn the Bra" protests that hit the headlines?

At least in the UK, I think there was a small campaign for trousers waged mainly by lady cyclists at the beginnng of the 20th century, but after the outbreak of the First World War, when women had to take on many jobs in agriculture and industry while the men went off to the Forces, trousers were simply practical, and that was more or less the end of any serious argument. I don't think women really wore trousers as a fashion item until the 1950s - between the wars they were a definite feminist or antiestablishment "statement" - but the nut had been cracked.

[Barleymower]

I feel like my comments are are largely but not complete ignored. Thanks Coder I will reply.
Am I on the wrong board or too far off topic ?

Nah, you are fine.

I'll dry my eyes.
I have to go out but I will reply more later on TERF ladies

[Barleymower]

I feel like my comments are are largely but not complete ignored. Thanks Coder I will reply.
Am I on the wrong board or too far off topic ?

Hi BM
Ironically, I spent about an hour responding to your TERF comment at stupid a.m today and sadly my connection broke so it wasn't saved.
Hence the shorter comment and the addition to the "Acceptance" thread in personal stories.
Here is the gist of it,

Steve I have a slightly different perspective.

My own wife does not come at this from any feminist angle whatsoever and I am really not aware that I have ever met a really feminist female let alone a TERF.
The other difference is that I am also unsure that the feminist movement can take the credit for the fashion freedoms women enjoy today. Historically, that was founded on social and economic changes from wars to evolution of industry in general.
Was there ever a single campaign to allow women to wear trousers like the "Burn the Bra" protests that hit the headlines? Oddly, I see plenty women in trousers but exceptionally few who go braless today.
As to my wife's reaction, this thread has made me realise something that I have overlooked since day one, her motivation. She knew very well that I liked to wear skirts before we married!
Following that, is it then logical to assume that she was "attracted" by the idea of MIS on some level?
That is a whole new can of worms that I would be reluctant to open at this stage.
The other bit was about my success this week in moving the MIS cause just a wee bit further. My family reaction could vary from complete apathy to hostility. A complete contrast to the support and well wishes from the cafe and in meat space too.
Sad but oh so true.
Steve

Thanks Stevie I didn't mean to be oversensitive and I value what you say. I ll reply more after bowling

[crfriend]

I have to go out but I will reply more later on TERF ladies

Isn't that an oxymoron?

[STEVIE]

I don't think women really wore trousers as a fashion item until the 1950s - between the wars they were a definite feminist or antiestablishment "statement" - but the nut had been cracked.

Agreed and I'd go with the "anti-establishment" as most of the illustrations show women of a certain "class" in androgynous mode.
Not sure how many of those would have been in favour of universal feminism.
Then we have this and the rest, we know all too well.
Men have just been complacent for too long .

[Barleymower]

My wife, a feminist and mother to two vulnerable boys met with her long standing more feminist friend who has a TERF sister. She came back to me and recounted that her friend found it cool that I wear skirts but also recounted that the friend asked: "don't you think that he is taking our skirts?". F replied have you seen the state of mens clothes? Bland! Of course men want more. I asked about the TERF sister. "What does she think?" She would be def against it. "Why?" I said "I don't know she said.

Something I didn't mention (at least don't think I did) was this very point - "we" are taking "their" skirts. I often wonder if there's a bit of grade school mentality "nah nah nah, not gonna share".

As for the TERF - hrmmm. I would be *very* interested in her opinion. From what I've read online about/from TERFs, they seem to be fine with a guy wearing a skirt as a guy - but the minute that guy thinks the clothes make the woman, then all hell breaks loose. I'm trying not to use TERF as a pejorative here - there are complex emotions behind these issues.

Coder, I did ask again what was meant when it's said we are taking their skirts. This is not my view or the view of F. Some women, not all and not all of them feminists are saying that when we wear skirts we are encroaching on their space. Some women are very possessive about womens spaces.
As for the sister who is a self proclaimed TERF. I'm told that she has a similar attitude. She is against men wearing skirts because it is an invasion of female spaces. There's a lot of anger there. Men are seen as reason for all their woes.

I don't want to be Mr Negative, so I won't. We can and we do wear what we want when we want. So what if if there are men and women out there who are not cheering us on. There is support out there.

[Barleymower]

I feel like my comments are are largely but not complete ignored. Thanks Coder I will reply.
Am I on the wrong board or too far off topic ?

Hi BM
Ironically, I spent about an hour responding to your TERF comment at stupid a.m today and sadly my connection broke so it wasn't saved.
Hence the shorter comment and the addition to the "Acceptance" thread in personal stories.
Here is the gist of it,

Steve I have a slightly different perspective.

My own wife does not come at this from any feminist angle whatsoever and I am really not aware that I have ever met a really feminist female let alone a TERF.
The other difference is that I am also unsure that the feminist movement can take the credit for the fashion freedoms women enjoy today. Historically, that was founded on social and economic changes from wars to evolution of industry in general.
Was there ever a single campaign to allow women to wear trousers like the "Burn the Bra" protests that hit the headlines? Oddly, I see plenty women in trousers but exceptionally few who go braless today.
As to my wife's reaction, this thread has made me realise something that I have overlooked since day one, her motivation. She knew very well that I liked to wear skirts before we married!
Following that, is it then logical to assume that she was "attracted" by the idea of MIS on some level?
That is a whole new can of worms that I would be reluctant to open at this stage.
The other bit was about my success this week in moving the MIS cause just a wee bit further. My family reaction could vary from complete apathy to hostility. A complete contrast to the support and well wishes from the cafe and in meat space too.
Sad but oh so true.
Steve

Steve I think you are right there's no point opening a can of worms. People get so fixed in their views, then when confronted by their bad choices the dont change, they fight back. Unless changes can be made there's no point in pursuing it.
Maybe as a niave younger person she thought you would stop once you were married?

[Coder]

Some women, not all and not all of them feminists are saying that when we wear skirts we are encroaching on their space. Some women are very possessive about womens spaces.
As for the sister who is a self proclaimed TERF. I'm told that she has a similar attitude. She is against men wearing skirts because it is an invasion of female spaces. There's a lot of anger there. Men are seen as reason for all their woes.

I don't want to be Mr Negative, so I won't. We can and we do wear what we want when we want. So what if if there are men and women out there who are not cheering us on. There is support out there.

Wow, that’s interesting. I guess “we” shouldn’t have let them have our pants - can we get them back? In my opinion, at least, that’s a very regressive take on clothing.

“We” gave up a lot of men’s-only spaces, including modern spaces where there were equivalent women’s spaces, where now it’s either unisex or women’s only. There are few, if any, men’s-only spaces. IMHO I’d never partake in a men’s-only space as they don’t interest me… but it feels like anytime men congregate (lol, except on this forum) women aim to “take over” the space. They asked for equality - well - skirts are the final frontier .

[Coder]

Some women, not all and not all of them feminists are saying that when we wear skirts we are encroaching on their space. Some women are very possessive about womens spaces.
As for the sister who is a self proclaimed TERF. I'm told that she has a similar attitude. She is against men wearing skirts because it is an invasion of female spaces. There's a lot of anger there. Men are seen as reason for all their woes.

I don't want to be Mr Negative, so I won't. We can and we do wear what we want when we want. So what if if there are men and women out there who are not cheering us on. There is support out there.

Wow, that’s interesting. I guess “we” shouldn’t have let them have our pants - can we get them back? In my opinion, at least, that’s a very regressive take on clothing.

“We” gave up a lot of men’s-only spaces, including modern spaces where there were equivalent women’s spaces, where now it’s either unisex or women’s only. There are few, if any, men’s-only spaces. IMHO I’d never partake in a men’s-only space as they don’t interest me… but it feels like anytime men congregate (lol, except on this forum) women aim to “take over” the space. They asked for equality - well - skirts are the final frontier .

And I don’t mean to say we should have retained all men’s-only spaces, I think some of those - say “men’s clubs” were likely used to foster and maintain male-dominated power in society.

Back to the point - “skirts” aren’t a women’s space, they don’t get you access to women’s feelings or thoughts or even spaces. They are clothing, and while some forms of the skirt are more feminine/woman-aligned than others, at the end of the day it is just cloth, styles evolve, and they need to get with the program .

[crfriend]

Back to the point - “skirts” aren’t a women’s space, they don’t get you access to women’s feelings or thoughts or even spaces. They are clothing, and while some forms of the skirt are more feminine/woman-aligned than others, at the end of the day it is just cloth, styles evolve, and they need to get with the program .

But are skirts "just objects of clothing"? Do they have symbolism that's important to the sisterhood? I'd posit "No" on 1 and "Yes" on 2. Why? It's not about the generalities of the matter as we've seen that women generally appreciate men in skirts -- just not their men. The difference is at once subtle and profound, and needs to be dug into.

I seem to be in the midst of original research (which Wikipedia frowns seriously upon) as I attempt to pursue a romance.

[Coder]

Back to the point - “skirts” aren’t a women’s space, they don’t get you access to women’s feelings or thoughts or even spaces. They are clothing, and while some forms of the skirt are more feminine/woman-aligned than others, at the end of the day it is just cloth, styles evolve, and they need to get with the program .

But are skirts "just objects of clothing"? Do they have symbolism that's important to the sisterhood? I'd posit "No" on 1 and "Yes" on 2. Why? It's not about the generalities of the matter as we've seen that women generally appreciate men in skirts -- just not their men. The difference is at once subtle and profound, and needs to be dug into.

I seem to be in the midst of original research (which Wikipedia frowns seriously upon) as I attempt to pursue a romance.

I realize after I wrote what I wrote it kind of contradicted my original point, hrmmm. This is a tough one to unpack but it feels like we are closer for certain objections. I wish we could tap the minds of women, but it feels like those who object to their men wearing skirts would also not be keen on participating, and those that accept it have gotten past these barriers, or this doesn’t apply. And obviously on the individual level we are unique - so even doing a small survey here you wouldn’t really be able to probe the subconscious at a deep/fundamental level.

[crfriend]

I realize after I wrote what I wrote it kind of contradicted my original point, hrmmm. This is a tough one to unpack but it feels like we are closer for certain objections. I wish we could tap the minds of women, but it feels like those who object to their men wearing skirts would also not be keen on participating, and those that accept it have gotten past these barriers, or this doesn’t apply. And obviously on the individual level we are unique - so even doing a small survey here you wouldn’t really be able to probe the subconscious at a deep/fundamental level.

Part of the problem is that (1) there are insufficient numbers of those here that have "XX" chromosome types to comment cogently on the matter and (2) if there were they'd already be "converts". So here we're kind of screwed because we have no honest answers.

Compounding the problem, is that it can vary with time. My late ex- was initially very supportive of me, but later of took a harder line that reflected "He looks better in my clothes than I do!" (even though by that time I pretty much had my own wardrobe and was no longer borrowing). So, it's going to be a crap-shoot.

[moonshadow]

In response to certain women claiming "we are taking their skirts..."

I was unaware there weren't enough to go around...

I can't speak for everyone, but as for me, I've never knowingly taken another woman's skirt. I've always purchased mine fair and square.