Girl talking about men’s skirts on YouTube

[moonshadow]

It is difficult for me to take a society seriously that gets hung up on what color belongs with what gender...

I mean honestly, take a step back and think about it... isn't that just the most ridiculous thing you've ever heard?

Again with the labels, this is why I just don't care... the human species clearly doesn't have a clue about anything, so why worry about labels? As it stands we live in a society that allows us to express ourselves freely with the only consequence being potential shunning from a populace that is... frankly... retarded.

Why worry about it? Just do what you want! Why worry about what idiots think?

[Coder]

It is difficult for me to take a society seriously that gets hung up on what color belongs with what gender...

I mean honestly, take a step back and think about it... isn't that just the most ridiculous thing you've ever heard?

Again with the labels, this is why I just don't care... the human species clearly doesn't have a clue about anything, so why worry about labels? As it stands we live in a society that allows us to express ourselves freely with the only consequence being potential shunning from a populace that is... frankly... retarded.

Why worry about it? Just do what you want! Why worry about what idiots think?

I wish I was a sociologist or really any sort of PHD'd '*ist', because then I could tell you with with conviction that "this is all human nature, it's how we evolved from early on". Unfortunately it's just a gut feeling for me - that people are like this because of the way people's minds work - and nothing more. We categorize things, which makes it easier to detect "friend" or "foe" - "us" from "them".

[Uncle Al]

I remember thinking I want a pink ice lolly too but was too scared to ask because i didn't want to be left out by the other boys.(*) I had a customer in work ask me for a something in blue because " I don't want my boy thinking he's a girl" (**) that for me is [rad-fem hate-speech redacted]

(*) This says fear - herd mentality - being 'just like the others'.
(**) Sexuality/Gender dogma taught by narrow minded parents.

I wish I was a sociologist or really any sort of PHD'd '*ist', because then I could tell you with with conviction that "this is all human nature, it's how we evolved from early on".

This is ingrained by adults, parents of the kids. THEY don't want their kids to be something other than what
their idea/concept of "NORMAL" kids are. The parents want a "Mini-Me" of themselves, taking away the
freedom to be creative.

To change this progression, we need more open minded parents - who aren't afraid to let their kids, short of
endangerment, be creative and inquisitive. The sexuality/gender 'brainwashing' of children needs to stop.
How long this will take is the main question. It will be a - S L O W - process but, over time, it can/will be done.

OK, that's my $.02 worth for this week
Now, I'll go back under my rock

Uncle Al

[moonshadow]

Well, don't get me wrong, there are some customs that seem sensible, but this thing with what color is designated for what gender grates on me.

I'm sorry, if society says I'm not allowed to even so much as fancy a particular color.... well that society can kiss my ass.

Now Children are a tricky matter. As I have no minors currently under my custody, I shall refrain from comment as I don't have a dog in that fight.

[Stu]

I wish I was a sociologist or really any sort of PHD'd '*ist', because then I could tell you with with conviction that "this is all human nature, it's how we evolved from early on". Unfortunately it's just a gut feeling for me - that people are like this because of the way people's minds work - and nothing more. We categorize things, which makes it easier to detect "friend" or "foe" - "us" from "them".

I am a PhD linguist, if that counts. I suppose I could examine some of the issues from a semiotic perspective - i.e. what are and are not "signs" of a person's sex. Starting with skirts and dresses, I would say that, unless they are worn as part of a uniform or corporate dress, or they are made for a specific purpose (like a bridal gown), they are simply clothing - fashion choices. Women don't generally wear skirts and dresses to show they are not men and we don't generally determine someone's sex by looking to see whether an individual is wearing a skirt or trousers.

Pink - this can be an intentional signifier when a parent puts a small child in pink to indicate she is a girl. Adult women sometimes opt for pink products, perhaps as it expresses their femininity and there may be some signification going on there as well, but it depends on the individual. Males and females have different body shapes and gait and they are usually easy to distinguish even at a distance. Clothing colour may be an indicator in such circumstances, but it doesn't have to be pink. Someone wearing a bright red coat and matching hat would be discerned as a woman even at a considerable distance.

I am not sure about the "friend and foe" thing. I don't think of people in that way, and I certainly wouldn't see females as foes. The only section of society that I know of who categorises the opposite sex as enemies are the radical feminists, many of whom depict men as oppressors and "the enemy" while other women and girls are portrayed as victims of male oppression. I reject this divisive notion as, I believe, to the vast majority of people - women included.

[rode_kater]

This is ingrained by adults, parents of the kids

I've wondered if the starting point for all of this is when babies are born they look the same. And since parents don't want the question "what sex is it?" the whole time, they choose some kind of marker, pink/blue clothing, long/short hair, etc. This just progresses without even thinking about it.

[After posting I note Stu made a similar comment]

That said, a colleague at work at one point noted that his son liked his daughters princess dresses, and he had no problem with him wearing them (there was no comment about what the daughter thought of this). So I have hope for the next generation.

[denimini]

I've wondered if the starting point for all of this is when babies are born they look the same. And since parents don't want the question "what sex is it?" the whole time, they choose some kind of marker, pink/blue clothing, long/short hair, etc. This just progresses without even thinking about it.

I wonder why people feel they need to know if a baby is a boy or girl. Perhaps to do baby-talk an extra octave higher? Perhaps to know what colour socks to knit? (do people still knit socks?)

I wonder what alternative responses are for that question:
"The baby seems to have male genitalia but I don't know what gender they will be".

I watched part of the Sydney Gay and Lesbian Mardi Gras on TV last night and there were all sorts of individuals there - great to see such a variety - not quite the bar scene in the first episode of Star Wars movie though.

[Kirbstone]

As head of a sixteen member four-generation family dynasty which only last year (2020) grew by two new arrivals, yes, nowadays with our scanning systems the first thing expectant parents want to know is if the foetus is 'all right', i.e. free of major genetic defects, closely followed by knowledge of what gender it is.
People who pretend that is not important are lying through their teeth. In the '70s when MOH and I were in the procreation game, such scans were not around and the gender was the big news at birth. I recall a very cleverly drawn cartoon of an obstetrician holding a baby up at birth and about to sever the umbilical chord, when the baby screams... 'Just you clap me on the back & I'll sue you!', whereupon the mother exclaims 'It's a Lawyer!'

A niece, living in Ottawa is married to a girl and they are very happy together. Some three-odd years ago the niece decided to have a baby by sperm donation, the donor being a cousin of her wife's. Some two & a half years ago little Quin arrived and she was thrilled he was a normal healthy boy. They visited us here in Ireland the Summer before last. Now she is heavily pregnant with inseminated offspring no. 2 and we haven't been told which gender yet, but they must know already. I tentatively enquired whether the donor for no. 2 was one and the same as for Quin, making them full siblings..... No reply yet.

Tom.

[Faldaguy]

by Uncle Al » Sat Mar 06, 2021 1:19 pm

eightofnine wrote:
I remember thinking I want a pink ice lolly too but was too scared to ask because i didn't want to be left out by the other boys.(*) I had a customer in work ask me for a something in blue because " I don't want my boy thinking he's a girl" (**) that for me is [rad-fem hate-speech redacted]
(*) This says fear - herd mentality - being 'just like the others'.
(**) Sexuality/Gender dogma taught by narrow minded parents.
Coder wrote: ↑Sat Mar 06, 2021 12:37 pm
I wish I was a sociologist or really any sort of PHD'd '*ist', because then I could tell you with with conviction that "this is all human nature, it's how we evolved from early on".
This is ingrained by adults, parents of the kids. THEY don't want their kids to be something other than what
their idea/concept of "NORMAL" kids are. The parents want a "Mini-Me" of themselves, taking away the
freedom to be creative.

To change this progression, we need more open minded parents - who aren't afraid to let their kids, short of
endangerment, be creative and inquisitive. The sexuality/gender 'brainwashing' of children needs to stop.
How long this will take is the main question. It will be a - S L O W - process but, over time, it can/will be done.

Sorry UA, I added emphasis to your comment above as a segway to an article in today's news from China about the need to masculinize their boys. Many of the comments in this thread are drifting from the singular to the plural, and this article takes it to the Nation State and more; but I thought it interesting to note the paragraph below attempting to equate some styles of dress to the imminent downfall of China!

The paragraph of note, and link to the article:

The growing popularity of male Chinese pop stars who wear makeup and androgynous, sparkly clothing has also influenced youth culture. Taking inspiration from Confucianism and South Korean pop culture, China's young style connoisseurs have embraced the "gentle style" look, a softer form of masculinity that stands in sharp contrast to traditional tough-guy tropes, allowing more diverse forms of self-expression.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/chin ... s-n1258939

[pelmut]

"The baby seems to have male genitalia but I don't know what gender they will be".

Absolutely right.

[Stevej180]

It is difficult for me to take a society seriously that gets hung up on what color belongs with what gender...

I mean honestly, take a step back and think about it... isn't that just the most ridiculous thing you've ever heard?

Again with the labels, this is why I just don't care... the human species clearly doesn't have a clue about anything, so why worry about labels? As it stands we live in a society that allows us to express ourselves freely with the only consequence being potential shunning from a populace that is... frankly... retarded.

Why worry about it? Just do what you want! Why worry about what idiots think?

Absolutely true. And yet, isn’t is all about non-verbal signals? If I (in the UK) stick two fingers up in your direction, with my palm facing me, you’ll interpret that signal in a particular way based on cultural norms. If I do it in Spain, it just means two. There is no other connotation.

Colours, clothing, hair styles etc. are forms of signalling, whether we means it to be or not. If I wear my hair straight up and dye it purple, I’m going to get noticed more than keeping it short and grey. So as I guy, if I wear a skirt in public, that’s going to be received as a confusing (in their own minds) signal to many people. And they will react in various ways to that confusion.

Of course, signals not only mean different things in different cultures (countries) but also across different generations. One of the most liberating things has been having my Gen Z teenage children try to explain to me how much they just don’t care whether or not I wear a skirt, how they are in favour of self-expression, and how much of a non-issue blurred gender lines are to them. The older generation though.... probably the opposite.

[rode_kater]

People who pretend that is not important are lying through their teeth

A colleague of mine has chosen not to know the sex of their baby because they want it to be a surprise. It happens.

[Dust]

... Males and females have different body shapes and gait and they are usually easy to distinguish even at a distance...

A lot of clothing is actually designed to emphasize these differences and make them more obvious. Women's clothing flared out at the hip and cinched at the waist augment that hourglass shape, while high heels affect the wearer's gait, and the shape of their legs. This is why I think we need more skirts and dresses explicitly made for men. That's probably a long way off, however.

[Dust]

I wonder why people feel they need to know if a baby is a boy or girl. Perhaps to do baby-talk an extra octave higher? Perhaps to know what colour socks to knit? (do people still knit socks?)

Finding neutral color baby clothes is tough, I'll give you that. Can be done, but most of it is done up in over the top pinks and blues these days.

But I think the reasons may be partly linguistic. No one wants to offend new parents by using the wrong pronouns, or worse, calling their baby "it." People are simply more comfortable talking kids when they can speak about them without awkwardness in language. "He's adorable!" or "she's so cute!" are so much better than "nice baby you got there..."

And yes, I know people who make useful things out of yarn by hand. Socks, maybe not anyone I know, but blankets, scarves, and hats for sure. Though, I'm sure someone out there is still making socks...

[moonshadow]

You know, as more proof that the concept of "gender" has nothing at all to do with "sex", I notice that many people refer to stray and wild animals as "it", even if the sex is known.

Why?

Because animals do not have gender unless we assign a specific animal one.

As for the reason the "gender" must be determined prior to birth of a human child, I heard the reason was because we live in an age where a typical family wants for nothing, and can afford fresh clothes and toys for a toddler regardless of the sex.

A hundred years ago when clothing and toys were harder to come by, families would repurpose the same clothes over and over, which is why many toddler boys and girls alike wore dress like garments... plus I imagine wearing a dress made it easier to change a diaper.

In fact, I have a photo of me a wearing a "dress" like garment as a toddler sitting in a [metal] high chair (remember those? )

The story goes I was quite attached to the dress, and pitched a fit when dad finally forbade me to wear it, concerned that his son would become a "sissy"...