Article on Gucci fashion show

Clippings from news sources involving fashion freedom and other gender equality issues.
Stu
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Re: Article on Gucci fashion show

Post by Stu »

Dust wrote:
Sun Sep 13, 2020 4:02 am
I have no idea what a better approach on her part would look like, however. Perhaps a simple "go ahead, it's fine to be curious" or something similar. What do you all think?
I am not sure what was in her mind. Maybe she should have just smiled and left him to it as saying anything would have scared him off. I don't think small retailers are in a position to do much. The larger outlets, however, would be in a better position to take a few risks with their marketing. They could start by declaring all their children's' lines to be unisex - no more "boys'" and "girls'" sections. But that has been done by some and it is an empty gesture if they don't follow it up by showing ranges being modelled by children of both sexes in their store graphics and advertising. It is this follow-up that hasn't happened and that would be a breakthrough. Of course, it may suit retailers to keep the sexes dressed differently as doing so ensures clothes are less likely to be swapped by or handed down to siblings, meaning that parents have to buy more stuff. That is not an insignificant factor, either. My children were girl-boy-girl, and so almost nothing was passed down whereas virtually everything would have been re-used had all garments been considered unisex.
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Pdxfashionpioneer
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Re: Article on Gucci fashion show

Post by Pdxfashionpioneer »

Believe it or not Dust, your response to Stu's anecdote about the local kids' store is about the same as mine.

Having been in business for decades I have to say there are plenty of cross currents that determine commercial behavior. It is true that small businesses generally have very limited resources so taking any kind of risk, such as taking a business stand on any kind of issue can be especially hazardous for a small business owner. But they do it all the time; because, it's their business and therefore the ultimate form of self-expression.

Savvy businesses understand they have to keep up with trends or they will quickly be left behind by their customers. On the other hand, if they get too far in front of their customers, they can very easily find themselves all alone. As individuals, we find ourselves in that place from time to time; almost any company that finds itself in that position can only get there once because at that point they're out of business.

I saw a site that sells children's clothes that proclaimed their unisex approach including little boys in skirts. On the other end of things, one of the major British department stores recently established a gender-free department. I have no idea of what became of it.

Bottom line, I have no idea when skirts will be readily available in the Men's Department, let alone when the retailers will dispense with the distinction altogether. In the meanwhile, expect to get your skirts and dresses in the Women's Department (For whatever reasons, like Faldaguy, I feel more comfortable shopping there in a skirt or dress.), but don't let that slow you down, most people are completely willing to accept you on your own terms in your skirts and dresses, just so long as you look sharp!

So, do yourselves a favor and don't wear a t-shirt or an untucked shirt with a nice skirt unless the shirt was designed to be worn untucked (straight hemline that hits at about the waist) . Ditto with worrying about what kind of skirt will get mistaken for shorts. They won't. Many, if not most people won't notice what you're wearing at all, unless it's a really striking dress, because most of what men wear isn't worth looking at. So no one bothers to pay attention at all anymore.
Last edited by Pdxfashionpioneer on Tue Sep 15, 2020 9:00 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Article on Gucci fashion show

Post by pelmut »

Dust wrote:
Sun Sep 13, 2020 3:35 am
[...]
pelmut wrote:
Wed Sep 09, 2020 11:37 am
I just found a video of the author proclaiming he is a reformed gay man.
A comment like that is enough to totally discredit him; he sounds like an ignorant self-publicist with a problem, who can't even be bothered to check a few facts.
So anyone who leaves the "gay" lifestyle is now discredited in all things, ignorant, and has their facts all wrong?
That confuses lifestyle with natural attributes.  You can be born homosexual and spend your entire life behaving heterosexually but you can't change what you were born as.  The use of the word 'reformed' is particularly offensive, as it implies a moral judgement.  Someone who appears to not understand the basics and uses judgemental language about natural traits, in my opinion, has discredited themselves in that field.
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Re: Article on Gucci fashion show

Post by rivegauche »

Yes, I think the retailers could do more to promote skirts and dresses for all, but they are more open to the concept than many realise. Whenever I buy new skirts or dresses (and I buy a lot) I try them on and am treated the same as any other customer. In fact sometimes I get preferential treatment. Maybe it is the stores who have gone unisex and the customer has not realised. The stores just haven't been shouting about it - maybe they should.
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Re: Article on Gucci fashion show

Post by Jim »

pelmut wrote:
Sun Sep 13, 2020 11:03 am
You can be born homosexual and spend your entire life behaving heterosexually but you can't change what you were born as.
This, of course, is a controversial statement. An attitude that is becoming more prevalent is
The truth is that Alfred Kinsey was right: sexuality not only exists on a continuum, but some people can and do move on that continuum across the lifespan. Sexuality can be fluid, varying across time and situation. --https://www.goodtherapy.org/blog/sexual-fluidity/
Why make the above assumption? It does not fit with commonly observed human behavior. Deliberate attempts to change sexual orientation are usually unsuccessfull, but that doesn't prove orientation never changes.
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Re: Article on Gucci fashion show

Post by Dust »

Funny, I was only thinking about what the woman could do in the moment, having seen the boy expressing his curiosity, not what she could do long term as a retailer. What could be said to the boy, or what should have been done in terms of turning a blind eye, or whatever. Should she have offered to let him try one on (probably a no-no with the parents) or what?
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Re: Article on Gucci fashion show

Post by Grok »

Dust wrote:
Sun Sep 13, 2020 4:02 am

I read this story, and give the shop owner the benefit of the doubt. I don't think she was trying to put him in his place at all. I read her statement as empathizing with the boy. He probably was freaking out about having his curiosity found out, and feeling that he was "caught" showing interest in something forbidden. I can empathize as well. That double standard, identified at a similar age, was an early step in the journey that landed me here.

Society, unfortunately is a very cruel and unforgiving place for boys.
The woman was probably doing the best thing she could have. She gently agreed that there is an inequity.
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Re: Article on Gucci fashion show

Post by Grok »

pelmut wrote:
Sun Sep 13, 2020 11:03 am
Dust wrote:
Sun Sep 13, 2020 3:35 am
[...]

So anyone who leaves the "gay" lifestyle is now discredited in all things, ignorant, and has their facts all wrong?
That confuses lifestyle with natural attributes.  You can be born homosexual and spend your entire life behaving heterosexually but you can't change what you were born as.  The use of the word 'reformed' is particularly offensive, as it implies a moral judgement.  Someone who appears to not understand the basics and uses judgemental language about natural traits, in my opinion, has discredited themselves in that field.
I came across mention of this in another forum. Church related efforts to change gay men to straight. There seemed to be a judgmental element to this-these men sinned, and are now repenting.
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Re: Article on Gucci fashion show

Post by pelmut »

Grok wrote:
Sun Sep 13, 2020 4:15 pm
pelmut wrote:
Sun Sep 13, 2020 11:03 am
Dust wrote:
Sun Sep 13, 2020 3:35 am
[...]

So anyone who leaves the "gay" lifestyle is now discredited in all things, ignorant, and has their facts all wrong?
That confuses lifestyle with natural attributes.  You can be born homosexual and spend your entire life behaving heterosexually but you can't change what you were born as.  The use of the word 'reformed' is particularly offensive, as it implies a moral judgement.  Someone who appears to not understand the basics and uses judgemental language about natural traits, in my opinion, has discredited themselves in that field.
I came across mention of this in another forum. Church related efforts to change gay men to straight. There seemed to be a judgmental element to this-these men sinned, and are now repenting.
Left-handedness was also condemned in similar ways by the church and, as recently as my childhood, some left-handed children were forced to write right-handed at school.  Nowadays that would be seen as child abuse, but the general principle of forcing people to adopt unnatural behaviour to satisfy some other commonly-held but misguided belief, even now, fails to be recognised as the abuse and bullying which it really is.
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pelmut
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Re: Article on Gucci fashion show

Post by pelmut »

Jim wrote:
Sun Sep 13, 2020 11:47 am
... Deliberate attempts to change sexual orientation are usually unsuccessfull, but that doesn't prove orientation never changes.
This is a tricky one to get a grasp on - and there is still a lot to be discovered.  

Not only is sexual orientation a wide spectrum, but an individual's preferences do not necessarily occupy a single point on that spectrum.  They span parts of the spectrum or even occupy a number of separated points.  During their lifetime, an individual may drift from place to place within their span or jump between points upon the spectrum, so in this respect their sexual orientation is changeable.  Attempts to deliberately change sexual orientation, whether voluntarily or in response to pressure from outside have been found not to work, so in that respect sexual orientation is not changeable.

Sexual behaviour is a different matter.  If the church insists that homosexual behaviour is wrong, they may still accept people whose sexual orientation is homosexual, as long as they do not engage in homosexual practices.  Some churches insist on their priests being celibate, but that doesn't mean that every priest has to be intersex or a eunuch.
There is no such thing as a normal person, only someone you don't know very well yet.
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Re: Article on Gucci fashion show

Post by Ray »

If any body, religious or otherwise, rejects or vilifies homosexuality, they should be ignored - or challenged on their antediluvian ways.

I ignore churches and all religious teachings. Life is better that way for me. I find many religious people slightly hypocritical. On the one hand, they preach compassion and goodness to one’s fellows. As long as you’re not gay in which case it’s a sin.

As for condemning lefthandedness - you’re joking, right? What sort of moron world see that as a sin?
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Freedomforall
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Re: Article on Gucci fashion show

Post by Freedomforall »

This is the response from the fashion designer concerning his choices and patterns for the show. I think he makes interesting points that certainly disparage the notion that he is trying to erase masculinity.

https://www.vogue.com/fashion-shows/fal ... wear/gucci
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Re: Article on Gucci fashion show

Post by FranTastic444 »

Dust wrote:
Sun Sep 13, 2020 3:35 am
Wikipedia is leftist and a known purveyor of false information. So what?
Please provide examples.
Dust wrote:
Sun Sep 13, 2020 3:35 am
For the record, Life Site News is primarily a single issue news and activism site focused on combatting abortion. They make no secret that this is what they are about. It is why "Life" is in their name.

They also address cultural issues seen as related to that, including bioethics, pornography, marriage and family, education, LGBT stuff, and religious matters.
Please explain the relationship between abortion and pornography. Or abortion and "LGBT stuff" for that matter. Maybe not quite so "single issue" as you make out???
Stu
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Re: Article on Gucci fashion show

Post by Stu »

Ray wrote:
Sun Sep 13, 2020 11:31 pm
If any body, religious or otherwise, rejects or vilifies homosexuality, they should be ignored - or challenged on their antediluvian ways.
I tend to respond in the same way to homosexuality and religion, perhaps because I am neither religious nor gay. I appreciate there is a qualitative difference between the two: homosexuality is a disposition/orientation while religion is a belief system. If someone is gay or a religious believer, that's their business - not mine. It doesn't affect me and I make no judgment one way or the other: I can't see why it is relevant to my relationship withe them or how I should interact with them. Rather than applying identity politics in my relations with others, I would rather just look at the person's character and how they respond to me.

On that basis, I would no more judge a person who sought to change their orientation than I would judge someone who adopted, eschewed or changed their religion. Whether changing one's sexual orientation is possible is a moot point. If someone offers treatment to do that, and a customer comes along who is seeking they change (entirely of their own volition!), then I see no reason for the law to interfere with that unless the provider has made claims which are or appear to be scientific or medical and which are unproven; that would be misrepresentation and there are laws in place to deal with that and prosecutions may be warranted. If, for example, a church offers a "cure" based on prayer or whatever, then I believe they should be entitled to do that on the same basis that we allow all kinds of alternative medicines that are scientifically unproven. Again, if a church claims a specific success rate, then they should be required to substantiate that with concrete and verifiable evidence.
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Re: Article on Gucci fashion show

Post by pelmut »

Ray wrote:
Sun Sep 13, 2020 11:31 pm
[...]
As for condemning lefthandedness - you’re joking, right? What sort of moron world see that as a sin?
No joke.  I was discussing this only a few days ago with a left-handed friend who was forced to use her right hand at school.  She is above average intelligence but was held back for two years at school because of her inability to write right-handed, which was all they would let her do.  It was a hangover from a couple of generations earlier, when left-handers were regarded as the work of the Devil (look up the origins of the word "sinister").

It will be a couple of generations into the future before the ideas that currently apply to homosexuals, transgenders and men in skirts are seen as equally moronic and looked back on with amazement.
There is no such thing as a normal person, only someone you don't know very well yet.
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