“I never joke about my work 007.”

Clippings from news sources involving fashion freedom and other gender equality issues.
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Pdxfashionpioneer
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“I never joke about my work 007.”

Post by Pdxfashionpioneer »

That line of Q’s in Goldfinger is one of my favorites.

It came to mind recently when another member of this forum referred to our ongoing disagreements about the nature of our shared interest as “a running joke.” For me it isn't. At some point or another each of us tries to figure out what is our purpose for being here in this life on this planet at this time in history. I’ve decided I’m here to help others make their dreams come true. I feel that one of the ways I do that is by proudly and unabashedly being a living example of how one can publicly be their genuine self without being punished for it.

Another way I do that is by being an active participant in the Pride Movement. Much to my surprise, I have gotten a significant amount of pushback for asserting that whether we accept it or not, we’re included in the diversity rainbow. Inasmuch as we wear skirts and dresses every one of us is nonbinary. By definition. Men who wear the straight jacket of fitting the Gender Binary would rather go out in public naked than put on a dress. By wearing these items we’re saying we don’t define ourselves as males in the conventional manner. That’s all it takes to be nonbinary and that’s all it means.

Why has this been so difficult for so many of you to accept? Please don’t say that as a kid one of the ways you were bullied was by being called names. I was too. So, if that’s your problem, I can tell you to get over it.

I announced Nonbinary Freedom Day on our forum so that those fellows who were wavering about going public with their genuine selves might feel they have some cover to jump off the fence. But that point got lost in the responses on why some members didn’t feel they needed it for themselves, why they couldn’t participate and most puzzling of all, suggesting we shouldn’t participate because it might give the wrong message. What wrong message? That we don’t fit the mold set by the Gender Binary? Well durr, we don’t. And that’s all that “Nonbinary” means.

But, mightn’t some people misinterpret what we’re doing and why? I’ll guarantee some people will; because, haters are going to hate. But when more of us confidently stride out into public dressed as we darned well please, at some point we’re going to normalize men wearing skirts and more people will be emboldened to live their genuine lives as well.

The Pride Movement traces its beginning to the Stonewall Riots. There had been public demonstrations before but somehow Stonewall captured the imagination of gays and lesbians and lit their collective fuse. Those riots were initiated by men in dresses. Maybe they were transwomen, maybe they were drag queens, maybe even gay crossdressers, but whatever they were, they had penises and publicly wore skirts and dresses. It took a while, but the Pride Movement and gays in general acknowledge that fact; with gratitude that folks who like us, who were biological males but wore skirts anyway were the first to stand up and by their actions shouted, "We're mad as hell about being treated this way and we're not going to take it anymore!"

When as a temp at Intel I broke the ice, my Diversity Ally and I agreed that in 10 years or so my dressing as I did would be an utter and complete non-issue. And in 20 years people will wonder why anyone ever thought it was. But in the meantime, we have to be a little political about it, which means teaming up with like-minded people.

Like it or not, today’s like-minded people are in the Pride Movement so they’re our natural allies. If we’re going to ask for more of their help, we’re going to have to give back a little and proudly wear their badges. In the current lexicon, “queer” doesn’t mean lesbian or gay, they’ve already got their own designations; it means anyone who looks different but doesn’t consider themselves a member of any of the other categories.

How did that come about? When young folks fitting that profile found they were being called "queer," even though they weren’t in fact homosexuals, they decided to stand the slur on its head and adopted it as a badge of honor. It worked! You rarely see LGBT any more, it's now at least LGBTQ in most uses of the acronym.

In the meantime, the Pride Movement has been working for us. They are ones who put into so many state and local laws protections for gender expression, which includes men wearing skirts to work. They created the climate where nearly all of the time I am respectfully addressed as "Sir" despite my pretty dresses, undergarments, styled hair, jewelry and makeup.

Why shouldn't we ally ourselves with them? We're not going to get anywhere on our own by insisting we don't belong in the diversity rainbow at all, because there are simply nowhere near enough of us who are out in public to even show up on the public's radar as a group. But everyone is fully aware of the people who identify as LGBTQ+.

Sure there are some who still hate non-conforming people for who they are and for being so open about it! Tragically, transwomen, especially Black transwomen, are still being killed for who they are. Worse yet, their killers' "panic" at discovering their victims had Y chromosomes is still offered as a defense and still works! But the haters are clearly on the wrong side of history and dwindling in numbers.

The more of us who stand up and proudly say, "You're taking on me too, MF'ers! Because I'm one of 'them’!" the sooner they'll slink back under the rocks they came out from.
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Re: “I never joke about my work 007.”

Post by moonshadow »

I have no issue with PRIDE. I don't get to participate in too many LGBT gatherings as I live in a small town over an hour away from any such functions, however if I lived a little closer I'd totally be more involved!

I do enjoy going to the PRIDE festivals and had a good time participating in the PRIDE caravan in Johnson City TN last month.

As for my own personal assessment of my gender, I guess I'm a guy. I know I'm a male. I'll leave the rest up to society to judge, I couldn't care less. If the world considers me trans, then I guess I'm trans... lord knows I've been called a lot worse.

As for the rest... I stand strong with the transgender community. At the very least, I'm an ally, and proudly fly my PRIDE flag from my front porch for all of Lebanon Virginia to see.

Doesn't bother me to say the least... But to each their own.
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Re: “I never joke about my work 007.”

Post by oldsalt1 »

The major problem I have with associating with the LGBTQ and PRIDE activities is that you are automatically classified as GAY

The new age description of Queer would be the best description of my sartorial inclinations.

Unfortunately Queer still equals gay You can't tell some body that you are Queer without them automatically considering you gay

I tried to get involved with the local LGBT (no Q in their signs) association but the only activities they had was a weekly meeting of a gay mens club.

If you participate in any Pride activities you are automatically considered gay because the general consensus is that there are only gay or lesbians there

While I agree with Dave's assertion that this group is probably the best source for eventual recognition of our status. And the only group that we can hang our hat with , I still am reluctant to openly participate because I don't want to be perceived as gay
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Re: “I never joke about my work 007.”

Post by Faldaguy »

Old Salt said: While I agree with Dave's assertion that this group is probably the best source for eventual recognition of our status. And the only group that we can hang our hat with , I still am reluctant to openly participate because I don't want to be perceived as gay
Dan, I suspect that a slew of folks perceive any of us men wearing skirts or dresses, "as gay"! It is a naive and narrow perception, but does exist. Weather more, or fewer, attribute that label to folks supporting Pride events, I do not know -- and really don't care. Your finding that the Pride meetings tend to focus on discussions around being gay only suggests that those are not the events of interest to you; but Dave's point that we can walk with them in a parade that is designed to help bring public acceptance to all, seems worthy of support--to them, to us, to the many who face discrimination for simply being.
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Re: “I never joke about my work 007.”

Post by oldsalt1 »

You are right and I see nothing wrong with participating in their events and working with the group.

I would guess that the hardest things to overcome are the preconceived notions that we grew up with
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Re: “I never joke about my work 007.”

Post by moonshadow »

You make some good points oldsalt. I've never been so involved so as to attend a local meeting, again living so far up in the hills, and with scheduling constraints on account of work.

That being said, I've noticed when a trans-ally ask me about my preferred pronoun, I seem to get a somewhat disappointing "oh...." when I tell them "he/him", and the conservation generally falls flat after that.

It's almost as though I'm too cis to run with trans people and too trans to run with cis...

Nevertheless, my door, and my heart are open to all who are willing to call me a friend.
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Re: “I never joke about my work 007.”

Post by crfriend »

moonshadow wrote:
Sun Jul 26, 2020 2:14 pm
It's almost as though I'm too cis to run with trans people and too trans to run with cis...
Sounds like the problem Elvis Presley had getting started... "He's too black for the white stations and to white for the black stations."
Nevertheless, my door, and my heart are open to all who are willing to call me a friend.
The way it should be.
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Re: “I never joke about my work 007.”

Post by pelmut »

crfriend wrote:
Sun Jul 26, 2020 2:30 pm
moonshadow wrote:
Sun Jul 26, 2020 2:14 pm
It's almost as though I'm too cis to run with trans people and too trans to run with cis...
Sounds like the problem Elvis Presley had getting started... "He's too black for the white stations and to white for the black stations."
...and that just about sums up the stupidity of creating artificial divisions where none are necessary.
There is no such thing as a normal person, only someone you don't know very well yet.
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Re: “I never joke about my work 007.”

Post by crfriend »

pelmut wrote:
Sun Jul 26, 2020 3:11 pm
...and that just about sums up the stupidity of creating artificial divisions where none are necessary.
I'd say that's an accurate observation.
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Re: “I never joke about my work 007.”

Post by Pdxfashionpioneer »

With this much meeting of the minds and hearts this could be a very short thread.

Good for all of us!

I'm proud of us and to be a member of this merry band!
David, the PDX Fashion Pioneer

Social norms aren't changed by Congress or Parliament; they're changed by a sufficient number of people ignoring the existing ones and publicly practicing new ones.
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Re: “I never joke about my work 007.”

Post by Dust »

moonshadow wrote:
Sun Jul 26, 2020 2:14 pm
That being said, I've noticed when a trans-ally ask me about my preferred pronoun, I seem to get a somewhat disappointing "oh...." when I tell them "he/him", and the conservation generally falls flat after that.
Face it, guys in skirts are not the cool kids. No weird pronouns, no agenda, nothing exciting (sexually or otherwise). Being a little "fashion forward" is about all we can claim.

Anyway, I don't want weird groupies. I just want to wear clothes that work for me, and have it not be a big deal.
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Re: “I never joke about my work 007.”

Post by Dust »

Pdxfashionpioneer wrote:
Sat Jul 25, 2020 7:40 pm
At some point or another each of us tries to figure out what is our purpose for being here in this life on this planet at this time in history. I’ve decided I’m here to help others make their dreams come true. I feel that one of the ways I do that is by proudly and unabashedly being a living example of how one can publicly be their genuine self without being punished for it.
I've said it from a different angle, although perhaps not here. I want to make things better for the next generation, particularly for the guys like me. The double standards between men and women are rediculous! Clothing is one of the more obvious, and one that I can do something about. By demonstrating what is possible, and getting more people exposed to the idea of men in skirts, it's that much easier for the next guy.

That means every time I go out in a skirt, we're that much closer to giving men the option of dressing appropriately for the weather. Wearing color. Clothing that makes sense anatomically. That means getting men options.
Pdxfashionpioneer wrote:
Sat Jul 25, 2020 7:40 pm
Another way I do that is by being an active participant in the Pride Movement. Much to my surprise, I have gotten a significant amount of pushback for asserting that whether we accept it or not, we’re included in the diversity rainbow. Inasmuch as we wear skirts and dresses every one of us is nonbinary. By definition. Men who wear the straight jacket of fitting the Gender Binary would rather go out in public naked than put on a dress. By wearing these items we’re saying we don’t define ourselves as males in the conventional manner. That’s all it takes to be nonbinary and that’s all it means.
While I agree that the confines of the standard male wardrobe feel like a straight jacket sometimes, I don't agree that makes any step outside of those confines necessarily makes us "non-binary" by any definition. Just look at the number of people here using looking "normal" and "natural" as the highest complement that can be given to a man's skirted outfit.
Pdxfashionpioneer wrote:
Sat Jul 25, 2020 7:40 pm
I announced Nonbinary Freedom Day on our forum so that those fellows who were wavering about going public with their genuine selves might feel they have some cover to jump off the fence. But that point got lost in the responses on why some members didn’t feel they needed it for themselves, why they couldn’t participate and most puzzling of all, suggesting we shouldn’t participate because it might give the wrong message. What wrong message? That we don’t fit the mold set by the Gender Binary? Well durr, we don’t. And that’s all that “Nonbinary” means.
But some of us don't want to send a message at all. We don't want to be seen as gay or trans. We can be our "genuine selves" no matter what we are wearing. We just want a few more options of what to wear as men.
Pdxfashionpioneer wrote:
Sat Jul 25, 2020 7:40 pm
But, mightn’t some people misinterpret what we’re doing and why? I’ll guarantee some people will; because, haters are going to hate. But when more of us confidently stride out into public dressed as we darned well please, at some point we’re going to normalize men wearing skirts and more people will be emboldened to live their genuine lives as well.
Misinterpreting is not hate. People see something new, and they don't know what to think. That's okay. We can give them context. That could be simply including a skirt in an otherwise masculine outfit. It could be our behaviour. But if you go out in all female clothes, with long hair in a feminine style, and makeup; don't be surprised or angry when you get mistaken for a woman or trans. And at that point you aren't helping normalize men in skirts, anyway.

But once men in skirts are "normalized," doesn't that mean that (by definition) skirts would be part of "normal" menswear, and therefore part of the (now larger) box of what is acceptable male behaviour? Wouldn't that mean that men in skirts would then be firmly in the "binary" category, as opposed to your "non-binary" category that you are insisting we are all a part of? That's what I am working towards.
Pdxfashionpioneer wrote:
Sat Jul 25, 2020 7:40 pm
The Pride Movement traces its beginning to the Stonewall Riots. There had been public demonstrations before but somehow Stonewall captured the imagination of gays and lesbians and lit their collective fuse. Those riots were initiated by men in dresses. Maybe they were transwomen, maybe they were drag queens, maybe even gay crossdressers, but whatever they were, they had penises and publicly wore skirts and dresses. It took a while, but the Pride Movement and gays in general acknowledge that fact; with gratitude that folks who like us, who were biological males but wore skirts anyway were the first to stand up and by their actions shouted, "We're mad as hell about being treated this way and we're not going to take it anymore!"
There are very big differences between drag, transgenderism, crossdressing, and (I would argue) men in skirts. Drag is a stage performance. Trans people want to be seen and treated as the opposite sex. Crossdressing gets into fetish territory. I want men in skirts to be seen as none of these things.

I may be mad about it, but I'm not for rioting, and don't want to be seen as associated with people engaging in wanton destruction for any reason. I also do not fit any of the categories I just listed other than "men in skirts."
Pdxfashionpioneer wrote:
Sat Jul 25, 2020 7:40 pm
When as a temp at Intel I broke the ice, my Diversity Ally and I agreed that in 10 years or so my dressing as I did would be an utter and complete non-issue. And in 20 years people will wonder why anyone ever thought it was. But in the meantime, we have to be a little political about it, which means teaming up with like-minded people.

Like it or not, today’s like-minded people are in the Pride Movement so they’re our natural allies. If we’re going to ask for more of their help, we’re going to have to give back a little and proudly wear their badges. In the current lexicon, “queer” doesn’t mean lesbian or gay, they’ve already got their own designations; it means anyone who looks different but doesn’t consider themselves a member of any of the other categories.
While getting allies is great, some of us have principles, too, and those don't necessarily agree with much of what the LGBT crowd stands for. To me, they are NOT like minded people. We may be able to agree on a few things, but that doesn't mean I am willing to "wear their badge" and give approval to their wider platform.
Pdxfashionpioneer wrote:
Sat Jul 25, 2020 7:40 pm
In the meantime, the Pride Movement has been working for us. They are ones who put into so many state and local laws protections for gender expression, which includes men wearing skirts to work.
While a lot of companies may fear lawsuits and let anyone claiming "gender expression" do what they want, this is not the road to peaceful integration of skirts into the male wardrobe. Laws and lawsuits breed resentment.

Skirts are not (to many of us) an expression of some gender difference. They are simply a preference based on comfort and functionality, that we believe can be every bit as acceptable for a regular guy as pants.
Pdxfashionpioneer wrote:
Sat Jul 25, 2020 7:40 pm
They created the climate where nearly all of the time I am respectfully addressed as "Sir" despite my pretty dresses, undergarments, styled hair, jewelry and makeup.
Wear what you want, I suppose, but I'm not terribly interested in any of those things for myself. I'm not trying to look pretty, or copy women. Borrow some ideas, maybe, but that is different from copying everything.

Have you thought that maybe some think you are trying to pass as a woman, and they are actually trying to NOT play along? Just a thought...
Pdxfashionpioneer wrote:
Sat Jul 25, 2020 7:40 pm
Why shouldn't we ally ourselves with them? We're not going to get anywhere on our own by insisting we don't belong in the diversity rainbow at all, because there are simply nowhere near enough of us who are out in public to even show up on the public's radar as a group. But everyone is fully aware of the people who identify as LGBTQ+.
Perhaps there would be a lot more of us, if we weren't fighting the LGBT baggage. Just look at the concern of many members here and especially their spouses. These things largely come BECAUSE OF the LGBT connection. THAT is what I see holding back men from wearing skirts. Break the association, and there will be more of us.
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Re: “I never joke about my work 007.”

Post by Sinned »

Thank Dust, for that insightful post. I also agree with you that if you wear dresses, the form accessories, hairpiece, make up and all that then you shouldn't be surprised if some think that you are trying to pass off as a woman. I know that Dave won't agree with me here. Yes, I admit that we should be able to wear what we want but there is a line where it goes from that to imitation of something else. Perhaps that's why I think that wearing a dress is a step too far for me. I probably wear more "female" tops and bottoms than "male" nowadays but don't feel that I have to wear anything more than I do to prove my point. Some of the looks that are paraded on this site are amazing and obviously suit your personalities and I go as far as I can within the bounds of mine.
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Re: “I never joke about my work 007.”

Post by Spirou003 »

Wow, Dust, you said almost everything I wanted to say here but far better than I could! Thank you for that! :)

I'll just say, briefly.
  • With LGBT there are some related gender identification or sexual orientations, none of them match to me (I am far more "binary" than "non-binary"). It does not mean I have anything against them, they are what they are and I have no right to judge them for what they are, like nobody has any right to judge me for what I am. But as they show them with gendered ideas that don't match to me, I won't join (or bother) them in any way and we will follow our own directions as long as they don't bother me. (Note about very last point: that's the same with everybody, in fact)
  • I want to wear a skirt the same way I could wear anything else. Nothing related to any gender identification. That's that kind of thought that I want to share with other people by wearing skirts, and nothing more. Btw, I want to keep masculine, as masculine as I can be while wearing a skirt. That's why I wouldn't wear other things from "woman's world" like dress, heels or do any makeup, which all give me feminine feelings. A man in skirt, thus
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Re: “I never joke about my work 007.”

Post by partlyscot »

I've decided that if anybody asks, I'll tell them why I wear skirts. If they have some misconceptions on the subject, that's their problem. I don't actually like them not understanding the situation, but I can't do anything about it, other than acting the way I am.

If I am misidentified as gay, or trans, so what? Being so is not a crime and should have no impact. Being misinterpreted might have some consequences, th eonly one that really bothers me is maybe not meeting with women, but if they are that narrow minded, they've disqualified themselves anyway.

To return to the original post, on one occasion when I received a compliment on the coordination of my outfit, I responded with "I didn't want people to think I put on a skirt by accident" which is sort of equivalent to saying I'm not doing it for a joke.
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