Gold Star Famlies

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Fred in Skirts
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Re: Gold Star Famlies

Post by Fred in Skirts »

oldsalt1 wrote:
Mon Jun 22, 2020 8:07 pm
crfriend wrote:
Mon Jun 22, 2020 6:54 pm
oldsalt1 wrote:
Mon Jun 22, 2020 6:24 pm
One more time Just as a point of reference when snopes started out it was middle of the road however since 2016 it has leined more and more towards a left leaning liberal position.
Far more likely what happened was that it start off centrist and stayed that way; the country hardened off to the right and that's causing the perception in shift.
Let me get this straight you are saying that in the last few years the country has shifted to the right.

Is there anybody on the café that agrees with that statement
Not I said the little red hen. The country has not shifted any where near the right...
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Re: Gold Star Famlies

Post by Ray »

Dan, I do. I think the opinions that are coming from the USA are more right wing than they used to be.

If I think about Reagan for example, or George Bush Snr, I do not think that they are as aggressively right wing as the current equivalent party.

There’s next to no socialism in the USA - and civilised countries have at least a modicum of socialism to keep some balance. Look to Europe, and learn.
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Re: Gold Star Famlies

Post by crfriend »

Fred in Skirts wrote:
Mon Jun 22, 2020 9:37 pm
Not I said the little red hen. The country has not shifted any where near the right...
This is where perception and bias enter the frame. Note that I am not using those terms derisively; we all have them. They are based in how were were brought up, what we read, who we have for friends, what our life-experiences tell us, and what we'd like to believe. This is precisely why they can be corrosive and misleading. The astute observer tries to subtract out his internal biases and perceptions in order to get a working observation that he can rationally make decisions on.

The video that Moon posted a link to had an interesting clip in it from Franklin Delano Roosevelt laying out his plans for a "New Economic Bill of Rights" for the country; the plans he laid out would be absolutely ridiculed now, and if that does not denote a shift in national attitudes I don't know what does. His proposal would have likely led to an outcome like Denmark's or Finland's -- hardly third-world holes. History shows us that this never happened.

Note that the changes in the United States that I speak of did not happen overnight: it took decades. The day-over-day change is likely imperceptible to anyone but the most observant and astute -- and who is paying attention. Most of us don't pay attention, however, and by the time something happens that we object to -- for whatever reason -- then we get upset. However, by that time, it's already way too late.

We could have stopped this mess if we'd been diligent in the 1960s and 1970s; we weren't and we have mainly ourselves to blame for it. We believed what we were fed about laissez-faire capitalism (aka "Trickle-Down Economics"), cutting taxes for the rich, and at the same time raising them on the working class. We missed the fact that things were hardening to the point where the place actually looked like it might go outright Fascist for a while. Now the perceptions we get are force-fed to us so we "believe" in them in a completely illogical and self-destructive way; and we isolate ourselves in our own little echo-chambers and don't study things properly and objectively. This is how things like the Taleban get started.
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Re: Gold Star Famlies

Post by Faldaguy »

I think we would have to look at a whole slew of individual ideas to get any notion of if the country has gone left or right; but certainly it has shifted on many things -- in both directions in my untested guess. IKE was a big R, Military hero, and 'right' in his politics of the times; yet many of us who are well to the left of center saw him as a good thing and supported him. Social issues like gay or skirt wearing men would have been just 'weird' or far left liberal in nearly everyone's view in IKE's era, but today Uncle Al and Old Salt and a thousand others.... wear skirts with little or no attribution to their politics. It strikes me as 'silly' that we engage in these efforts to label one another as left/right or more 'nasty' labels of libtard and evangelical alt-right or....you name it. Why? Why can't we address the underlying concerns/fears and needs with an effort to at least understand where they are coming from and hopefully seek a solution that works for most. What is accomplished with the constant effort to put people down with the battering ram of labels.
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Re: Gold Star Famlies

Post by moonshadow »

Faldaguy wrote:
Tue Jun 23, 2020 5:22 am
What is accomplished with the constant effort to put people down with the battering ram of labels.
Apparently it's the only way to win elections these days... :(
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Re: Gold Star Famlies

Post by Pdxfashionpioneer »

Carl,
Thank you for backing me up. Well put.

OldSalt,
I don't think I said you were violating the law; I was trying to say that if you are offended by what Speaker Pelosi did, it's only your personal opinion and that it has no basis in the Flag Code.

Before you judge the Snopes analysis of this issue, I suggest you READ IT.

Moonshadow,
You said you don't like going against veterans. If so, you better not say or do ANYTHING. Veterans of the US military are like Americans in general; there is no unanimity (sp.?) in their opinions. Let me give you a relevant example. My father was a veteran of the Second World War. One time when demonstrators in the US were burning our flag -- much to the outrage of the conservatives -- over the cause du jour. There were a number of veterans who were quoted in the news as being more than outraged. So I asked the vet I knew the best, my Dad, what his feelings were.

"I don't like. And I think its kind of stupid (So do I because flag-burning isn't persuasive, it just pisses people off.)," he said, "But it's their right!"

"But Dad, how can you feel that way?" I asked (Just for fun). "Didn't you fight for that flag?!"

"No," he said, "I didn't fight for the flag; I fought for what it stood for."

As to whether the US as a whole is more right-leaning; I would have to say, "No, it's not."

What's happened is that because Newt Gingrich created a public image of the Republican Party as the party that never compromises; our politics has become polarized. That polarization has lead to both parties indulging in obstructionism. Often for its own sake. The most public and infamous example of that was Sen. Mitch McConnell publicly declaring that it was going to be his mission to make Barack Obama a one-term President by doing everything in his power to obstruct everything he proposed or attempted. Mind you, this was at the height of the financial crisis that began in 2008 and wound up being called the Great Recession.

Typically, when the country has been in crisis, the leaders of the opposition party, whichever party it was that was out of power, has pledged to do everything it could, without betraying its principals, to support the President in the country's hour of need. Don't believe me? Look up the vote on Pres. Roosevelt's request for a Declaration of War against the Japanese on December 8, 1941.

Unfortunately, Republican obstructionism has been met with Democratic obstructionism creating gridlock. And so the country goes deeper and deeper into the rabbit's hole.

In the meantime, as Carl has correctly pointed out, that gridlock has created a golden opportunity for the 1% and the major corporations to wreak havoc on our country both physically and politically.

As I said before, we now have the Blue and the Red tribes battling it out not for conflicting visions or principles so much as for raw power that has become an illusion, because whichever tribe is on the outs is going to wholeheartedly obstruct the party that's in. In the meantime, governance, per se, goes by the wayside and the scalawags I identified above get away with literal and figurative murder.

So stop voting to just throw the bums out and start voting for (or at least stop voting against) people of good character. Not perfect, they don't exist, but generally good. And secondly, whose principles make sense to you. And then give them some time to learn the ropes of governance and get something done.
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Re: Gold Star Famlies

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Pdxfashionpioneer wrote:
Thu Jun 25, 2020 10:35 am
"But Dad, how can you feel that way?" I asked (Just for fun). "Didn't you fight for that flag?!"

"No," he said, "I didn't fight for the flag; I fought for what it stood for."
He was right, bless his heart. Today the flag has become a symbol of worship, not a symbol of a nation. You dad actually fought for the nation of the United States of America, not its symbol.
As to whether the US as a whole is more right-leaning; I would have to say, "No, it's not."
Compare the country that your dad fought for to the one we have today and take a look at the overall ideology of the place. Is it really the same country with the same rules of governance and the same values? Was the answer to everything to declare a "war on ..."? Were they so naive as to believe that a wall is the answer to anything?
As I said before, we now have the Blue and the Red tribes battling it out not for conflicting visions or principles so much as for raw power that has become an illusion, because whichever tribe is on the outs is going to wholeheartedly obstruct the party that's in. In the meantime, governance, per se, goes by the wayside and the scalawags I identified above get away with literal and figurative murder.
We disagree on this, but I will respectfully submit that it's only the plebecite that is so viscerally divided; the ones in power are united in making the super-rich happy and things that class wants pass easily and without controversy. Only the matters of general Welfare (remember that from the Preamble to the Constitution?) get the "partisan treatment" and languish or get voted down summarily.
[quite]So stop voting to just throw the bums out and start voting for (or at least stop voting against) people of good character. Not perfect, they don't exist, but generally good. And secondly, whose principles make sense to you. And then give them some time to learn the ropes of governance and get something done.[/quote]
So long as good ones can actually run and not be immediately corrupted by the vast sums of money required to mount a campaign.
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Re: Gold Star Famlies

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Fair enough, Carl.

Except for the question of values. Only a fraction of the registered voters, which is in turn only a percentage of the eligible voters, bothered to vote in the 2016 election. Of them, the majority voted AGAINST Trump. In addition, most Americans are for taking down the statues of the Confederate leaders and the other aims of the Black Lives Matter movement; despite the rhetoric coming out of the White House and the collateral looting and rioting that have come along with the demonstrations. So, I would have to say that the values and principles of the American people are intact; it's just that the current government's actions and inactions only occasionally reflect the will of the people.
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Re: Gold Star Famlies

Post by oldsalt1 »

Where did you get your statistic that Most Americans are for taking down the confederate statues.
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Re: Gold Star Famlies

Post by Pdxfashionpioneer »

Where did you get your statistic that Most Americans are for taking down the confederate statues.


A recent poll cited by an article in my Apple newsfeed.

Before you dismiss all polls reported in the mainstream press as left-wing propaganda, consider this, the polls commissioned by Fox News are also reporting that Trump is trailing Biden.
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Re: Gold Star Famlies

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That's right but in 2016 all the polls had Hillary winning until the votes were counted.
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Re: Gold Star Famlies

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oldsalt1 wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 1:21 pm
That's right but in 2016 all the polls had Hillary winning until the votes were counted.
She was supposed to win as she was the Chosen One. Trump got in on a protest vote and likely a whole raft of "Democrats" defecting or just staying home because of the choice.

Either way that one went the general population was going to lose, and did. The only difference would have been that Clinton theoretically knows how to behave in public.
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Re: Gold Star Famlies

Post by Pdxfashionpioneer »

oldsalt1 wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 1:21 pm
That's right but in 2016 all the polls had Hillary winning until the votes were counted.


For the umpteenth time OldSalt1, the polls came within 1% of pegging the total popular vote. But Trump won the Electoral College vote because he strategically worked the Midwestern states and Pennsylvania that Mrs. Clinton took for granted. Smart on Trump's part, dumb on hers.

So stop deluding yourself; the polls were NOT wrong, the pollsters just didn't do enough polling in the individual states. If you pay attention to the news you will see they are dong that and not only is Trump trailing in those Midwestern states he won by a grand total of 80,000 votes; Biden is neck and neck with Trump in reliably Red states such as Texas and Arizona. Trump rallies or no Trump rallies.

Speaking of which, the Tulsa Fire Marshall pegged the crowd at 6,200 in an arena built to hold almost 20,000 and there were no reports of demonstrators blocking the entrances. There are plenty of reports of Trump being furious with his campaign staff.

Lucky for them that Trump can't get to them; a bunch of them are in quarantine.
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Re: Gold Star Famlies

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Pdxfashionpioneer wrote:
Sat Jun 27, 2020 10:49 am
Lucky for them that Trump can't get to them; a bunch of them are in quarantine.
The problem here is that the bully uses Twitter as a tool -- and Twitter can hurt anybody, any time, anywhere.
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Re: Gold Star Famlies

Post by pelmut »

It reminds me of someone else who used the latest technology -- in those days, radio broadcasting and public address amplifiers at rallies -- to get into power and stay there.  Those were the real innovations, not the policies they disseminated; they shot into power the first person who succeeded in using them to his own political advantage, regardless of his suitability.
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