Gucci Takes Toxic Masculinity to Task for Fall 2020

Clippings from news sources involving fashion freedom and other gender equality issues.
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JeffB1959
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Re: Gucci Takes Toxic Masculinity to Task for Fall 2020

Post by JeffB1959 »

moonshadow wrote:
Tue Jan 21, 2020 12:52 am
crfriend wrote:
Tue Jan 21, 2020 12:29 am
I actually like the blouse in the lead-off shot
I'm glad I'm not the only one!
I’m down with that blouse too! It looks cute!
I don't want to LOOK like a woman, I just want to DRESS like a woman.
nzfreestyler
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Re: Gucci Takes Toxic Masculinity to Task for Fall 2020

Post by nzfreestyler »

An interesting blouse/top
Definitely looks like its come straight from womenswear - with the exception than a ladies top would have the sleeves more tapered and not flared out - but the bodice is darted and the neckline drops bot quite as low as some modern necklines - but its much lower than menswear normally is!

Still the tailoring and colours are nice!

I'd wear that.

The rest of the stuff is in my opinion shapeless.

NZF
andrewsh
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Re: Gucci Takes Toxic Masculinity to Task for Fall 2020

Post by andrewsh »

denimini wrote:
Wed Jan 22, 2020 5:11 am
Jim wrote:
Tue Jan 21, 2020 9:18 pm
If "toxic masculinity" meant that masculinity is toxic, then the evaluation of the term as "misandric hate speech" would be correct. But the original meaning of the term is not that all masculinity is toxic. "Toxic" here is an adjective that defines a specific subset of masculinity.

When men feel free to abuse women or other men because that is macho, that is "toxic masculinity". When they think it weak to acknowledge or express their feelings, that is "toxic masculinity".
Jim, I believe that you are correct in your interpretation of "toxic masculinity". It is just some aspects of conventional masculine behaviour that is toxic, to the men themselves as well as to women. A lot of male suicides could be prevented if they did not think that it was a sign of non masculine weakness to seek help.
Jim, MrSoapsud, denimini, thank you for posting this. I rarely comment on such posts as I don’t have much energy for arguing, and I guess this is true for others, and this creates an impression everyone here agrees with crfriend’s interpretation, but in fact we who don’t are not so few on this forum.
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Re: Gucci Takes Toxic Masculinity to Task for Fall 2020

Post by Stu »

There is nothing inherently toxic about masculinity. The notion of toxic masculinity is essentially a myth - a manifestation of misandric hate speech invented by radical feminists.

Human behaviour can be positive or negative. People of both sexes can exhibit gentleness and violence; honesty and crookedness, altruism and selfishness; refinement and boorishness; moderation and excess. To attach these characteristics to gender is no better than to attach them to race, ethnicity of sexual orientation. It is bigotry and the worst kind of identity politics.
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Re: Gucci Takes Toxic Masculinity to Task for Fall 2020

Post by andrewsh »

Stu wrote:
Thu Apr 02, 2020 2:48 pm
There is nothing inherently toxic about masculinity. The notion of toxic masculinity is essentially a myth - a manifestation of misandric hate speech invented by radical feminists.
As some explained above, toxic masculinity is very real and it does not mean all masculinity is toxic. It is a term encompassing machismo and similar behaviour, which is in many cultures traditionally counts as a part of what is considered being masculine.

Every time you make an argument based on the logical fallacy you’ve just written, you lose the argument.
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Re: Gucci Takes Toxic Masculinity to Task for Fall 2020

Post by Stu »

andrewsh wrote:
Thu Apr 02, 2020 5:10 pm
As some explained above, toxic masculinity is very real and it does not mean all masculinity is toxic. It is a term encompassing machismo and similar behaviour, which is in many cultures traditionally counts as a part of what is considered being masculine.

Every time you make an argument based on the logical fallacy you’ve just written, you lose the argument.
Many cultures? OK, so tell us precisely which cultures you have in mind. Name names. You are certainly not talking about modern western culture and, if you are, then you are repeating utter nonsense - and offensive nonsense to boot. When women are violent and abusive, as they often are, do we refer to that as "toxic femininity"?

https://www.domesticshelters.org/articl ... he-abusers
https://time.com/2921491/hope-solo-women-violence/

Machismo is no more "masculinity" than emotional feebleness is a manifestation of femininity.

If you are claiming a "logical fallacy" - then you have to name it. I am familiar with logical fallacies and the philosophical principles that underlie them as I teach them to my undergraduates, so do enlighten me as to which logical fallacy I am guilty of and in what way?
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Re: Gucci Takes Toxic Masculinity to Task for Fall 2020

Post by pelmut »

Stu wrote:
Thu Apr 02, 2020 7:09 pm
When women are violent and abusive, as they often are, do we refer to that as "toxic femininity"?
No, because that is not a trait which is encouraged in women or is part of femininity, but it is encouraged in men and many people consider it to be part of masculinity.
There is no such thing as a normal person, only someone you don't know very well yet.
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Re: Gucci Takes Toxic Masculinity to Task for Fall 2020

Post by Stu »

pelmut wrote:
Thu Apr 02, 2020 10:22 pm
No, because that is not a trait which is encouraged in women or is part of femininity, but it is encouraged in men and many people consider it to be part of masculinity.
Where is your evidence that western culture actively encourages men to behave in the "toxic" ways implied? There isn't any evidence because it doesn't. If anything, the reverse is the case. For example, men who rape or are violent to women are despised even among prison communities. Nobody admires such men.

It is sad to see so many men have fallen for the feminist lies.
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Re: Gucci Takes Toxic Masculinity to Task for Fall 2020

Post by pelmut »

Stu wrote:
Fri Apr 03, 2020 7:55 am
pelmut wrote:
Thu Apr 02, 2020 10:22 pm
No, because that is not a trait which is encouraged in women or is part of femininity, but it is encouraged in men and many people consider it to be part of masculinity.
Where is your evidence that western culture actively encourages men to behave in the "toxic" ways implied?
Isn't that just what you are doing in this thread?
There is no such thing as a normal person, only someone you don't know very well yet.
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Re: Gucci Takes Toxic Masculinity to Task for Fall 2020

Post by Stu »

pelmut wrote:
Fri Apr 03, 2020 10:03 am
Isn't that just what you are doing in this thread?
So telling the truth is toxic, is it?
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Re: Gucci Takes Toxic Masculinity to Task for Fall 2020

Post by crfriend »

One has to love language and the way it can be used, but sometimes it's not enough to bridge gaps in understanding, and when insurmountable gaps in understanding exist it's rather important we learn to agree to disagree on some things. It would seem that the notions of feminism and "toxic masculinity" (whatever that may be) is one of those areas.

For what it's worth, I used to consider myself somewhat of a feminist, in the equality sense (now long obsolete), until a tangle with the legal system in 2015 taught me precisely how lopsided and biased the legal system is. That experience cured me of the notion of equality for women -- men need it now.
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Re: Gucci Takes Toxic Masculinity to Task for Fall 2020

Post by Stu »

crfriend wrote:
Fri Apr 03, 2020 12:11 pm
For what it's worth, I used to consider myself somewhat of a feminist, in the equality sense (now long obsolete), until a tangle with the legal system in 2015 taught me precisely how lopsided and biased the legal system is. That experience cured me of the notion of equality for women -- men need it now.
Absolutely right.

There is a world of difference between the old and benign equity feminism of people like Camille Paglia and Christina Hoff Sommers, women who are now supporting equality for men as much as for women, and the modern mainstream feminism which is based on Marxist or neo-Marxist dogma, female-supremacist and profoundly misandric.
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Re: Gucci Takes Toxic Masculinity to Task for Fall 2020

Post by Sinned »

Stu, whether you are right or wrong the language that you have used and the way you have put your questions/views is very inflammatory and marks the start of a flame war. You could have said things in a less confrontational way. Faced with your remarks I would have just turned my back and walked away. Such has happened in the past so since the moderators haven't said it I will. Cool it or it will end up in the thread being locked.
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Re: Gucci Takes Toxic Masculinity to Task for Fall 2020

Post by skirtyscot »

Well Dennis, if you can't cope with a man expressing his opinion in a clear and forthright way, I'd say the problem lies with you rather than him.

As for toxic masculinity, anyone who uses it as a synonym for masculinity either is a misandrist or has fallen for the misandrists' rhetoric. From reading threads here a while ago and following a few links, I ended up at reddit's gender critical sub. A hotbed of radical feminism, but even there, most people are reasonable enough to say that we can only get true equality if people acknowledge that society is unfair to men in many ways. Two of them are lack of emotional support and pressure to behave in a macho way, and they can lead to the kinds of behaviour that get called toxic.
Keep on skirting,

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Re: Gucci Takes Toxic Masculinity to Task for Fall 2020

Post by Stu »

Sinned wrote:
Fri Apr 03, 2020 7:45 pm
You could have said things in a less confrontational way.
Maybe, but frankly, I am fed up with people referring to one of my innate characteristics, my masculinity, being associated with toxicity. Would it be tolerable to use the term "toxic" in reference to somebody's race, skin colour or sexual orientation? Attitudes of individuals that give rise to bad behaviour can certainly be toxic, but to assign toxicity to an innate human characteristic is a form of bigotry, namely misandry.
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