Another reason I hate Tennessee

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Re: Another reason I hate Tennessee

Postby Ray » Tue Jul 02, 2019 10:56 am

It’s a pretty sad state of affairs if you can’t run for office unless you believe in a god or deity. Oh dear.

In the UK, something like 53% are non religious (2017). For those aged 17-25, it’s 71%. If a politician overtly starts going on about religion, it’s viewed with some concern. Not major concern, but the individual will stand out.

Different countries!
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Re: Another reason I hate Tennessee

Postby crfriend » Tue Jul 02, 2019 11:35 am

Ray wrote:It’s a pretty sad state of affairs if you can’t run for office unless you believe in a god or deity. Oh dear.

As Moon points up, in some places it's legally impossible to run for office unless you adhere to a belief in deities; in others, once it's out that a candidate is a non-believer he'll likely not get much of a showing at the polls (and will receive an enormous amount of negative press); and being a non-believer can handicap one in personal life as well -- which is why most tend to keep quiet on the matter.
Different countries!

Indeed.
Moonshadow wrote:I've known some atheists and agnostics (many say they agnostics are also atheists) and that is information they hold close to their chest.

Agnostics are different from atheists insofar as agnostics are unconvinced as to the presence of deities and are open to the idea; outright atheists tend towards the harder line of denying the possibility of there being the presence of deities. The term "atheist" is also frequently used as a pejorative by the faithful, so some folks tend to use the softer "agnostic" to describe their outlook.
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Re: Another reason I hate Tennessee

Postby dillon » Wed Jul 03, 2019 7:17 am

BobM wrote:If there is no God, then what is the foundation of civil law? If there is no God, then the civil law is only a matter of opinion, and who can claim the right of enforcement of opinion? People, ignorant ones anyway, like to claim that you can't legislate morality, but that is exactly what the greater part of the body of civil law does. Why is murder punishable if it is only a matter of opinion whether or not it is wrong, and why is someone else's opinion of right and wrong worth more than mine? No, there is a law outside of ourselves that applies to all men at all times. We can all agree, maybe, that murder is wrong, but why is it wrong if it is only a matter of opinion?

Consider information. Brother Friend, you will like this. Where does information come from? Does information create itself? Can a blank book fill itself in, or does it require an outside agency? Do computer programs write themselves out of thin air, or is a programmer required? What is DNA, but stored information? Information can not create itself because information is required to create information. But information that can't be read isn't of use, so a reader, RNA, is required. But even with information and a reader, nothing happens without a mechanism for deployment of the read information. To assume that all the incomprehensible amount of information in the universe created itself is, in a word, asinine. Appealing to "chance" as a creator of information-- or anything else--is equally asinine because "chance" has no existence, hence no ability to do anything. The fact of God is both a rational and a logical necessity.


Civil Law? As opposed to Criminal Law? Or are you creating another euphemism for Religious Law? And is said "Law" a matter of mere opinion? Yes, most likely it is. But opinion likely based on a cumulative human experiential knowledge rather than upon divine intercession, divine infusion. And based, as likely was the Book of Genesis, on the desire of non-empirical men to give one another answers for big mysterious questions, and thereby secure moral authority.

And it could well be argued that the purported existence of a God is, itself, nothing more than an opinion.

It is likely that the Book of Genesis is pretty much only a representation of men deigning to answer questions that were, as a matter of knowledge, essentially unanswerable, and a history that was conveyed only through spoken word, thereby taking on a character of being absolute and unquestionable, no matter how wildly distorted that history became over the interpretations of countless generations. After all, wise men were often only "wise men" because they were the most insistent on their own superiority of belief and opinion. That's basically politics, even as we know it today. For all we actually know, Moses was simply a man who was schooled in one of the earliest written languages of men, and deigned record experiential history, along with its non-empirical attribution to mystical powers, perhaps at the very time when this inherited legacy was being adapted into a political rationalization, (the 'political' part meaning the uniting and control of the population by those compelled to do so), whether or not the explanations held veracity. That rationalization, inevitably upon its popularization, became Religion, and, by the extension of brute authority, Law. That record, that became the basis of three major religions, was basically conjecture, myth, and legend that served a political purpose.

Sans the understanding of means and methods of empirically testing unproven belief, enforced Religion was the most expeditious route to effecting social control. And it has performed well in that function ever since. Was it wrong? Perhaps not, since it held a society in cohesion to the mutual benefit of the populus, but also to the immense benefit (profit and prosperity) of those who metered the control. The problem with injecting the name of God into any system of law is that the greatest cruelty and violence becomes not only possible, but essential. For without the taking of life, how can the supposed human representative of the Almighty show his full devotion? And thereby persuade his brethren that he is the chosen one to lead men in a way that is based upon the Law of the Almighty? The sacrifice of human life in the service of popular superstition becomes a necessity, and for the least and most natural of offenses.

We are born ignorant, and absorb what we are taught, whether or not the "course material" of familial/community socialization is factual or imaginary. So that what you have called "civil law" likely emerged from the primitive effort of men to expound upon things for which they lacked the ability to correctly explain. For example, the prohibition of eating pork, since men observed that eating pig meat led to unpleasant disease, never understanding it was due to the trichina worm, a parasite of both pigs and men, assigned the blame to a sign from an almighty deity.

Historically, men have opted to pick and choose among elements of Scripture, according to the times. And that selection eventually goes unchallenged by even religious conservatives. Deuteronomy and Leviticus are filled with passages that sanction rape and violence inflicted by men upon women, and with passages fully endorsing human slavery. Neither of those Scriptural ideas are acceptable today, not even in the most "fundamentalist" congregations. So what went wrong? It's still Biblical, still Scripture, right?

The simple fact is that Society changes without regard to Religion, and, I would argue, rightly so. Any Society that stands stalwartly in a stagnation of belief is a dying Society. The aforementioned issues - sexual violence and human enslavement - were not "dropped" by Religion because God changed His/Her mind, but because those who clung to them were simply abandoned by Society; "left behind," socially speaking. Human Society slowly evolves, intellectually, and drags behind it Religion, kicking and screaming; that's evident today. The same will happen - is happening - with LGBTQ acceptance. It is only a matter of time before "Sodom and Gomorrah" text regarding sexual conformity, held by mainstream Religion, is unknown speech from the pulpit, and thus relegated to the dustbin of Theology. The most primitive of the "faithful" and the most timid of Religious bureaucracies will long cling to anachronistic dogma - until the figurative ax is about to fall - but at that point the foot-dragging doesn't last. Every institution eventually learns how to insure its survival into future generations, even those presumably based upon absolute and immutable belief.

That's the sad thing about death for the devout; they lose their influence over the mores and dogma of the next generation. They aren't around to assure the constancy of belief. That has been so throughout time, yet it seems God opts not to intervene in defense of men's mis-history of Himself/Herself. He/She doesn't seem to object to change. Perhaps He/She simply finds it ridiculous that men pretend to know exactly what's in His/Her mind?
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Re: Another reason I hate Tennessee

Postby Freefrom » Wed Jul 03, 2019 9:43 am

dillon wrote: For example, the prohibition of eating pork, since men observed that eating pig meat led to unpleasant disease, never understanding it was due to the trichina worm, a parasite of both pigs and men, assigned the blame to a sign from an almighty deity.

Well reasoned.
May I add.
Properly cooked, heat treatment will kill parasites.
Another possible reason for the prohibition of pig meat may have been that it is ,apparently, indistinguishable from human flesh in texture, taste and smell.
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Re: Another reason I hate Tennessee

Postby dillon » Wed Jul 03, 2019 1:37 pm

Freefrom wrote:Properly cooked, heat treatment will kill parasites. Another possible reason for the prohibition of pig meat may have been that it is ,apparently, indistinguishable from human flesh in texture, taste and smell.


To the first statement, I say "Bravo!" to the humans who discovered well-cooked pork. :D

To the second statement, I say "OMG! How would you know this?" :shock:

Are you saying that there is yet a third "white meat"... and it's people? :pig:

soylent green is people.png
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Re: Another reason I hate Tennessee

Postby Ralph » Wed Jul 03, 2019 1:59 pm

dillon wrote:
Freefrom wrote:Are you saying that there is yet a third "white meat"... and it's people?


Draw your own conclusions.
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Re: Another reason I hate Tennessee

Postby Freefrom » Wed Jul 03, 2019 8:53 pm

dillon wrote:
Freefrom wrote:Properly cooked, heat treatment will kill parasites. Another possible reason for the prohibition of pig meat may have been that it is ,apparently, indistinguishable from human flesh in texture, taste and smell.


To the first statement, I say "Bravo!" to the humans who discovered well-cooked pork. :D

To the second statement, I say "OMG! How would you know this?" :shock:

Are you saying that there is yet a third "white meat"... and it's people? :pig:



Just one of those things you pick up in the course of reading a lot.
Furthermore Pigs are omnivores, the human race has always tended to shy from eating the flesh of meat eating animals, even after they had been domesticated. Dogs and cats come to mind here. Most animal protein comes from herbivores, including insects, even birds of prey are taboo. The only carnivores we eat in any quantity are fish.
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Re: Another reason I hate Tennessee

Postby r.m.anderson » Thu Jul 04, 2019 12:16 am

Freefrom wrote:
dillon wrote:
Freefrom wrote:Properly cooked, heat treatment will kill parasites. Another possible reason for the prohibition of pig meat may have been that it is ,apparently, indistinguishable from human flesh in texture, taste and smell.


To the first statement, I say "Bravo!" to the humans who discovered well-cooked pork. :D

To the second statement, I say "OMG! How would you know this?" :shock:

Are you saying that there is yet a third "white meat"... and it's people? :pig:



Just one of those things you pick up in the course of reading a lot.
Furthermore Pigs are omnivores, the human race has always tended to shy from eating the flesh of meat eating animals, even after they had been domesticated. Dogs and cats come to mind here. Most animal protein comes from herbivores, including insects, even birds of prey are taboo. The only carnivores we eat in any quantity are fish.




Thought I was seeing a rehash of the movie "Soylent Green" where this sy-fy thriller the menu featured mystery edible flesh (yes human edible flesh)
from recent cadavers the earth being devoid of other life substance food - Sorry if you were eating and spoiled your dinner !
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Re: Another reason I hate Tennessee

Postby Fred in Skirts » Thu Jul 04, 2019 1:27 am

r.m.anderson wrote:Thought I was seeing a rehash of the movie "Soylent Green" where this sy-fy thriller the menu featured mystery edible flesh (yes human edible flesh) from recent cadavers the earth being devoid of other life substance food - Sorry if you were eating and spoiled your dinner !

The cadavers were processed into biscuit like substance that was sold as food to the residents of an over crowded New York City. There were many different colors of these biscuits representing the different types of proteins needed by humans to live. These were sold by the government at stores run by the government.

Only the Filthy Rich and high level government people had real food and places to live, all others were crammed into small apartments the were originally designed to house 1 person.

If you have not seen this movie I recommend renting it and watching it.
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Re: Another reason I hate Tennessee

Postby Daryl » Thu Jul 04, 2019 7:08 am

All human systems are founded on religious beliefs. The only question is whether we can see this or not, or whether we are willing to admit it, in any particular case.

We can neatly define things as "not religion" if we like, but that's a dodge. There is a faith element in every choice: faith that the choice will bear fruit. Some folks like to opine that science is not based on faith, but on reason and evidence. Trivially, that is simply having faith in reason, and faith in evidence. Non-trivially, reason itself is loaded with the assumption that the universe is fundamentally rational (ie. that the law of non-contradiction extends from the merely mental to the real). Likewise, evidence can only confirm the utility of a particular (and rational) description of how things will unfold under given circumstances. The idea that collecting evidence is incrementally uncovering the fundamental structure of the universe is quite satisfying, perhaps, but as big, and as unsupportable, as the idea that a conscious agent made (or makes) the universe.

It's no accident that origin stories are the very stuff of both science and God-based religions. Origin stories make the world seem understandable, at least in principle. If it's understandable then we can hope to understand it, and perhaps then control it, and hope is the greatest salve for fear. Fear; raw, paralysing terror in the face of an ultimately impartial and only partially controllable world; is the more realistic position, but it is not very motivating, and no DNA worth its salt ever produced a critter that didn't have some means to keep striving to survive despite the truth that it can't be sure that it will. So we create certainties and cleave to them, even though they can't exist. We delude ourselves then pridefully set out to argue whose delusions are better.

And this, at least, is where religions worthy of being called religions, have an edge. God-based religions balance that pride with humility. They confess that we cannot truly know, much less become, God. Ultimately, we are called to submit to God -- to our own unknowing. In contrast, science, as an institution at least, still maintains the hubristic idea that the universe is ultimately knowable, the equivalent of the idea that we can know godhood, perhaps not today but at least in principle. Sure, humility is sometimes discovered in the breath-taking awe scientific endeavour can lead people to discover whilst exploring the universe, but pride follows closely because what a marvellous creature we must be to even be able to appreciate the cause of that awe.

Ultimately, science is just another religion; another competitor for "the best way to view the world".
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Re: Another reason I hate Tennessee

Postby Ray » Thu Jul 04, 2019 10:29 pm

I disagree.

I’m not going to write chapter and verse. It’s late.

Two points.

1. Having faith or hope doesn’t make something religious.
2. Science contains hubris? I fail to see how the search to explain everything shows hubris. If you want hubris, look to many religions or religious sects who maintain that theirs is the only true path.

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Re: Another reason I hate Tennessee

Postby Kirbstone » Fri Jul 05, 2019 12:00 am

....and despite all the 'evidence' presented us by the Round Earthers, I adhere firmly to the belief that the Earth is flat! Just go up to the top of Yorkminster on a clear day & look South-West. The entire Antipodean Continent & New Zealand are clearly visible!

Tom
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Re: Another reason I hate Tennessee

Postby skirtyscot » Fri Jul 05, 2019 10:42 pm

Geez, Daryl, how much time did you waste typing that?
Keep on skirting,

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Re: Another reason I hate Tennessee

Postby greenboots » Sat Jul 06, 2019 12:34 pm

In many of the discussions around the social acceptability of Men in Skirts, we are generally agreed that we desire to be allowed to do our thing without being labelled as anything other than "men who happen to wear skirts". How ironic, then, that "devout" people are so often portrayed on this forum in such a negative manner. Whilst there is a proportion of the population (variable according to nation or locality) which can only cope with MIS by attaching labels such as "gay", "queer", "trans", etc., there are some pretty horrible Christians, Muslims, Jews, Hindus, etc. who revile and occasionally try to kill not only those of other religions, but those of their own who don't exactly agree with them. However, many of the Christians I know genuinely seek to wrestle with loving others, and try to work through the difficult theological issues including abortion, marriage and divorce and the increasing range of sexual and gender expressions. If there's a criticism of Christians in the UK, it is that they are generally too wishy-washy and not engaged, rather than bigotted and hate-filled.

As I noted before, members of SC are generally articulate and well-able to reason and many of us openly acknowledge our religious beliefs. Hence there seems no excuse for constantly bashing people of faith, or implying that all "devout" people must of necessity be bigotted religious zealots.

(Anyway, I thought religion and politics were lumped in with nether garments as topics which may be alluded to, but should not be discussed in detail. Perhaps cover up some of the private bits of our lives :shhh: )
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Re: Another reason I hate Tennessee

Postby crfriend » Sat Jul 06, 2019 12:57 pm

greenboots wrote:(Anyway, I thought religion and politics were lumped in with nether garments as topics which may be alluded to, but should not be discussed in detail. Perhaps cover up some of the private bits of our lives :shhh: )

Agreed, the formal "rules" prohibit "politics", "religion" and, "what girds our loins", but, if those are carried to the extreme we'd wind up with a form of "Disneyfication" which could make folks leave for want of anything interesting to discuss -- so light transgressions of the hard-and-fast rules are tolerated so long as everybody remains respectful. It's a delicate balance, but on the whole we lot do a remarkably decent job at it.

The issue of "belief/non-belief" (in deities) is likely as intractable as political "right/left" because of a small minority who act out and disrupt things for everyone else. The trick is to stay out of the minority and don't become part of the problem.
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