Votes Matter ... or Do They?

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crfriend
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Re: Votes Matter ... or Do They?

Post by crfriend »

Pdxfashionpioneer wrote:Similarly, we didn't bail out the banks to save the bankers; we did it to save the economy.
Whilst I agree that it was important, up to a point, to do, the net effect was to make the next cycle vastly more dangerous and vicious than the fiasco in 2008. By encouraging extensive and unwarranted risk-taking -- and guaranteeing no personal repercussions -- we are essentially giving these criminals a blank check to the accounts of the working class.
One of things that will come out of the criminal investigations is that the real scandal lays in what is legal that shouldn't be!
I'm not confident that it'll produce anything more than several thousand dead trees to print the excuses and platitudes on.
The real hazard in the banking industry wasn't so much the size of the executive bonuses it was that the pre-Dodd-Frank structure eliminated the downside risks. That was addressed in the legislation and is getting watered down in the regulation-writing process.
It turns out that we have Bill Clinton -- a Democrat -- to blame for finally repealing Glass-Stegall, instead of vetoing Gramm-Leach_Bailey. Making matters worse, most of the useful components of Frank-Dodd were repealed -- and that signed off on by Obama (a Democrat), who should have vetoed it, but didn't. So, when I say that one party is as much to blame for this as the other I mean it; the outcomes show it. With the meat of Frank-Dodd being thrown away, the regulations to implement it will either never be written, or the few that were, will simply be removed.
Build a robust firewall between commercial and investment banking land REQUIRE clawbacks when things go South, make it easy for shareholders, such as institutional investors, to sue the companies if they don't claw those bonuses back and you'll have a whole new ballgame.
Also, legislation embodying a code of ethics should be implemented where if a fiasco does more than, say, 0.5% of the GDP, those responsible for engineering it (whether by intent or incompetence) can spend life in jail. For the truly egregious cases (Enron comes to mind, where it was, demonstrably done by intent) I could even support the death penalty for those at the top -- and I am not a supporter of capital punishment. After all, if a thug beats you up and steals your wages from last week, he goes to jail. Why is it, then, that someone can injure thousands, make off with millions, and walk away scot-free and whistling all the way to the bank?
As to the interest of the SEC and the IRS in enforcing the law, again it starts at the top, but basically, it's that old story of people want to do the jobs they signed up to do.
While that may be true in the purest sense, there is also overt political meddling in the investigatory and prosecution departments, and, while the bureaucrats want to do what they signed on to do, they may have roadblocks thrown in front of them or otherwise get told to look the other way.
As to my statement as to where the gridlock is coming from, again, listen to what Mitch McConnell has said and look at what It's Worse Than You Think has to say.
I assert that it's a by-product, and while it's disgusting to watch, and keeps a lot of important things from happening, the theatre keeps things under wraps from the general public. How would it look for congress to vote on a carbon-tax and shoot it down by a 70-30 margin? Resurrecting financial law that would (hopefully) keep another '80 panic from happening again by 70-30? A 70-30 defeat of reforms to the tax code to level the playing field? That'd look pretty shady -- and rightfully so -- because it'd show off in spades who's calling the shots. So it gets hidden by the cloak of "gridlock". Congress is not gridlocked at all on "what's important"; it's 70-30 or better. Unfortunately what's important to the billionaire class does not align with what's important to the general population.
The anti-trust laws haven't changed much; it's the rules and enforcement philosophy that's changed. And again, that start's at the top.
Those started disappearing back in the 1980s, and are likely entirely repealed now.
Frankly we need to get tax rates, adjusted for inflation, back to where they were in the 50's or 60's. To do it we, as a nation, have to accept that Keynesian economics describe the real world a whole lot more accurately than Ayn Rand's.
Removing the inversion in rates that penalises work would be a very, very, good first step, but that is simply not going to happen. Even if the proposal makes into the form of a bill the theatre of gridlock will stall it indefinitely -- because for it to pass would require a very substantial number of (pre-selected, recall) politicians to defy their paymasters, and for it to fail would prove instantly that congress does not represent the will of the populace.
Dollars don't vote, people do.
Dollars don't vote, but dollars pick who you get to vote for.

I'm watching with distinct interest the rumblings and noise that the Russians are trying to game the US election. The reason I'm doing so is that I suspect that it's an early indication that the fix may go in if Trump wins and the election will get invalidated. Then it's a crap-shoot as to what will happen, but my money is on Clinton getting appointed to the post in some manner. It'd also finally point up precisely how corrupt the system has gotten. There's no provision for a re-match -- and a re-match might well produce very interesting (or very dangerous) results, or even possibly a Constitutional Convention where everything would be in play.

Interesting times indeed.
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Pdxfashionpioneer
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Re: Votes Matter ... or Do They?

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Sorry Carl I have to call b*lls#!t on this.

You're correct that the Dodd-Frank bill got badly watered down but there's enough substance left that the bankers are spending a lot of time and attention on the rule-making process. And you know what Deep Throat said.

What I'm calling bull on is you make it sound like the political system is being deliberately manipulated. When I call you out on the improbability of such a vast conspiracy being in place and still hidden, you insist that no it's not a conspiracy it's the confluence of interests. And now you're back to talking about "selected candidates." Selected by whom for what purpose? Next you talk about the Congressional gridlock being "theatrics." Again, who's writing the script? Who's doing the casting? Who's the director?

Sorry, you can't have it both ways.

Such conspiracy as exists is an insanely partisan Republican Party that obstructs every move that Democratic Presidents try to make for the sake of obstruction. Their actions and statements around the current Supreme Court vacancy is a perfect example.

When Chief Justice Roberts was nominated the Democrats could have pulled out all of the same delaying tactics the Republicans have used. But they didn't. Even though Roberts was clearly a conservative, equally clear was the fact that he is a fair-minded man who knows the law and Constitutional law so the Democrats, after reasonable due diligence approved his appointed.

Pres. Obama nominates an eminently qualified, moderate and most Republican Senators won't even talk to the man, the Judiciary Committee Chairman has stated he won't even schedule hearings and the Majority Leader has promised that if Hillary Clinton is elected he will categorically thwart any of her Supreme nominees even if that results in vacancies for her full term in office.

If this isn't outrageous, unconscionable, unprecedented irresponsibility please tell me what is?

The Democrats, including Presidents Bill Clinton and Barack Obama, do not have perfect records on Progressive and Populist issues, but they've taken a whole lot better care of the lower and middle classes than the Republicans have!

At this point I feel like we've exhausted this topic.
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Re: Votes Matter ... or Do They?

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Pdxfashionpioneer wrote:At this point I feel like we've exhausted this topic.
Indeed. Let's settle it like gentlemen and agree to disagree. {offers hand}
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Pdxfashionpioneer
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Re: Votes Matter ... or Do They?

Post by Pdxfashionpioneer »

Agreed! {Hand accepted & shook}
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Re: Votes Matter ... or Do They?

Post by r.m.anderson »

One thing before we go - I will be ever so happy to have the most deplorable despicable commercials back on TV.
You know the Viagra; Toilet bowl cleaner; mouth washes; ads for useless services etc.
The last 30 days have been the abomination of civility - "WHY CAN'T WE JUST ALL GET ALONG" ?
I am talking about the in state congressional elections where slinging mud is so passé - the real test comes when
slinging the manure and painting a -NEGATIVE- picture of ones opponent under the guise of guilty by association.
The fact checking media is debunking all this but still yet there remains the smell test of that manure hanging in
balance and it is in district that I don't vote in but still yet the only way I can avoid it is turn the damn boob tube OFF !

Oh well lights off and when I awaken in the AM whatever will be will have happened ! - Que Sera Sera
"YES SKIRTING MATTERS"!
"Kilt-On" -or- as the case may be "Skirt-On" !
WHY ?
Isn't wearing a kilt enough?
Well a skirt will do in a pinch!
Make mine short and don't you dare think of pinching there !
Disaffected.citizen
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Re: Votes Matter ... or Do They?

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Well, now we'll find out the truth.

May God bless America and the rest of the world. Good luck.
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Re: Votes Matter ... or Do They?

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Well it looks as if America has the President elect that it seems to deserve at this time. It appears that this was as much a protest vote as Brexit was for us. I tried to stay awake but fell asleep sometime when Trump was in the lead but there was still a long way to go. I have followed your posts with a distant interest and it will be interesting to find out whose view will be the most accurate Carl's of Pdx's. Please don't take this the wrong way as it is said very much tongue in cheek but as your history proves I wonder if Trump will be the next assassination candidate. The wildcard that may not get along with the establishment. Anyway, let me be the first to say congratulations USA and welcome to the protest club.
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Re: Votes Matter ... or Do They?

Post by Pdxfashionpioneer »

Yes Sinned it was a protest vote; our working class protested their being dismissed, by both parties, as inevitable and inconsequential collateral damage along the way to a truly global economy.

True enough that in the long run a global economy is in everyone's best interests. Our politicians forgot Harry Hopkins's corollary, that eating is a day-to-day proposition.

At this point it's virtually impossible that it will be as bad as I originally imagined, however, I have one hell of an imagination!

Of course, between now and Inauguration Day President-elect Trump is going to have a crash course on the difference between reality-TV and reality.
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Re: Votes Matter ... or Do They?

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I have stayed out of the political discussions, things were getting to personal and nasty. I think I was just about the only vocal Trump supporter in the cafe. This is not the time for anyone to gloat over the results. We have to get back together there is a lot to be done. Trump can not do it alone I am praying that he has the wisdom to pick the right people to fill his cabinet and the many other positions that will shortly be vacated.
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Re: Votes Matter ... or Do They?

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Well it looks like this may be interesting, and I do admit astonishment about it.

However, we've still got the sabre-rattling from the establishment regarding "Russian interference" with the process, and we'll have to see how that plays out before anything else really happens. Even if that doesn't materialise into anything and Trump takes office, there are several ways to keep him in check (both constitutional and otherwise), but one thing is virtually guaranteed: it's going to be a busy time for the diplomatic corps for the next several years.
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Re: Votes Matter ... or Do They?

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crfriend wrote:...but one thing is virtually guaranteed: it's going to be a busy time for the diplomatic corps for the next several years.
Based on our experience with Duterte, whose antics are similar to Trump's, the diplomatic corps will indeed be really busy explaining whatever controversial statement the President makes.
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Re: Votes Matter ... or Do They?

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Sinned wrote:Please don't take this the wrong way as it is said very much tongue in cheek but as your history proves I wonder if Trump will be the next assassination candidate.
Though I'm not particular fond of Trump, I do believe he is at least a moderate Republican, and not a major threat to anyone's civil liberties (I do expect slight reversions- certainly no advancements). But let me say.. PRAY PRAY PRAY PRAY that HE DOES NOT GET ASSASSINATED. Because I can tell you this, if that bastard Pence becomes our president as a result, this country WILL revert to everything that was ugly about the 1950's. With a totally republican controlled congress, soon to be conservative supreme court, and Pence at the presidential helm, it will be nothing short of downright illegal to be anything other than a straight (non-homosexual) white, protestant Christian. Granted, while he can't just make it a law to say "you can't be this or that" he and his minions will pretty much make it impossible to function in society as anything else.

What's left of our constitution would go up in smoke.

As it stands now, I will bet you that various federal law makers are already drafting "religious freedom" bills to the likes that would make a Mississippi politician proud.

I'm not the most savvy political member on this site, I've had my foot in my mouth a number of times, which is another reason I've remained somewhat quiet about it, but I can't help but feel more than a little nervous about this whole thing. I'm worried that many freedoms I personally enjoy will be stripped. I'm worried that with the shifting political climate my style in dress may result in additional grief for me as the red voters become obnoxious in their victory. Already a trans-woman in Cookeville had her pickup set on fire with the words "TRUMP" spray painted on it as it sat in her driveway. A part of me is worried about a new push to finally get old Moon Shadow fired from his job in an effort to "Make America Great Again", as I'm not dumb or blind, I know a lot of people in the company I work for think I'm a perverse freak and would love to get me away with this region.

It begins, the hate will flow, and it will have a smile on it's face when it does so. It's not so much Trump, and I also know that many Trump voters are reasonable people. For example, I know oldsalt would never do such a thing (at least I hope not), but it's the Trump worshipers that I worry about, and there's plenty of those go to around. Those are the people that literally want this country to go back to the days where homosexuality was STRICTLY an underground lifestyle because if you got caught, you were subject to all sorts of nasties from loosing your job, family, and maybe even your life, all while the authorities look the other way, blacks had freedom in theory but not actual practice, and women's place is in the home and kitchen.

Our country voted "R" for reverse. And they've got their foot mashed on the accelerator as they speed away in that direction... I just hope they're at least looking behind them.

I remain hopeful, though not fully convinced that these election results are the result of the American people simply wanting a change in the way of how our country is being ran economically, job wise, and internationally and is not simple an indicator of how much hate, sexism, racism, homophobia, and bigotry exist among America's people. If that's the case, then I must say, it's quite saddening and disheartening that this nation, that prides itself on freedom for everyone could be so blatantly hypocritical, and it demonstrates that we have our very own "CSUS" (to play on ISIS), "Christian State of the United States"

I refuse to bend my knee of the offical "God" of our nation, and on that note I can say that I expect hard times ahead. I will NOT take the mark of the beast. My soul is NOT for sale!

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Re: Votes Matter ... or Do They?

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... and to the Democrats out there... SHAME ON YOU! Next time give us a damned candidate worth voting for! Clinton was embroiled in so many legal issues there's no way she was going to win unless it was indeed somehow rigged! This whole country is about to get exactly what it deserves. Figuring Trump was going to carry Washington County VA anyway, I gladly gave my vote to Jill Stein, because I'll be damned if I'm going to sit here and have to choose between a lying murderer and an narcissistic idiot. There was a good possibility that Sanders could have been our president... but nooooooo, little Clinton's gotta get her way all the time.

And she'll be back in 2020 and we'll do this sh!t all over again.
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Re: Votes Matter ... or Do They?

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moonshadow wrote:But let me say.. PRAY PRAY PRAY PRAY that HE DOES NOT GET ASSASSINATED. Because I can tell you this, if that bastard Pence becomes our president as a result, this country WILL revert to everything that was ugly about the 1950's.
"If anything happens to me, shoot Nixon." -- (attributed to) Dwight David Eisenhower [perhaps apocryphal]

In addition to the diplomatic corps being very busy, the Secret Service is going to have its hands full as well unless he decides to hunker down Cheney-like in a "secure undisclosed location".

It's going to be a very, very, interesting few years.

On the bright side, recall that he's widely reviled by his own party (and it's his own damned party that couldn't defeat him by running a reasonable candidate) so that may work in society's advantage. Time will tell.
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It's more like "Ex unum pluribus" nowadays.
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Re: Votes Matter ... or Do They?

Post by r.m.anderson »

Just maybe a -1- term President ?
With enough damage done - the Republicans better watch out !
"You are Fired" !
In the next 4 years the country may throw all the rascals (term used lightly) out in the pasture to wallow in manure !
So he wants to "Drain the Swamp" just remember to be careful of the alligators residing within !

"SO WHO WANTS TO BE PRESIDENT NOW" ?
"YES SKIRTING MATTERS"!
"Kilt-On" -or- as the case may be "Skirt-On" !
WHY ?
Isn't wearing a kilt enough?
Well a skirt will do in a pinch!
Make mine short and don't you dare think of pinching there !
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