Tha Guardian comments on skirts Aug 2013

[skirtingtoday]

Did anyone see this article in the Guardian?

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfre ... ng-neutral

Most of the comments are positive with (surprisingly) few trolls...

[couyalair]

The article is ok, that's all, but how you can say that the comments are positive, I do not know.
For me there seemed to be only the usual contempt for any man stepping out of his bifurcates, which is a reflexion of the age-old contempt for women, so long confined to skirts.

Something noticeable in most of the comments, that I find hard to accept, is the automatic pairing of garment and sex, and the inference that wearing a skirt is "gender-bending" or androgynous. Are most of us not still men when we put on a skirt? Are we less attracted to the girls when we are skirted than in trousers?
Are we less attracted to the boys when in skirts than when we are bifurcated? In other words, what connexion is there? What difference does it make to our lifestyles?

The comment that surprised me most was the mention of an African statesman that wore a plain old business suit of which the lower half was a skirt. My impression is that Africans react to men in skirts and to women in trousers far more than Europeans do. Yes, you'll see Africans in boubous (or whatever the tunics are called), but always with trousers underneath. You'll not see so many African women in trousers.

Martin

[Caultron]

...Something noticeable in most of the comments, that I find hard to accept, is the automatic pairing of garment and sex, and the inference that wearing a skirt is "gender-bending" or androgynous...

I think the author was referring to the style as being more masculine or feminine, and not the wearer.

Of course, we'd all like to see the feminine, women-only connotation of skirts change.

But for now, at least, most people do think of skirts as women's-only garments, and some of those will conclude that a man wearing one must in some way or aspect be feminine. And in the case of transvestites they're probably correct. But I, for one, don't wear a skirt because it's feminine; I wear it despite the feminine connotation. And I counteract the connotation by presenting a thoroughly male image above the waist and below the knees. (a male image that does include earrings, though... Hmmm...)

That'd be progress, eh? Skirts seen as no more feminine than earrings?

[Grok]

Kilting seems to be a special case. Otherwise, skirt-like garments are associated almost entirely with females. For example, recent posts indicated that sarongs-at the beach-are just barely tolerated. Even though sarongs are traditional mens wear in a variety of cultures.

[Grok]

If fashion designers are interested in applying "androgynous" and "gender morphing" to men, who will they sell to? (It occurs to me that Free Stylers can simply reach across the aisle). I think the future is with either: 1) DIY projects 2) Imported MUGs 3) Companies such as Apostrophe.

[crfriend]

(It occurs to me that Free Stylers can simply reach across the aisle).

In point of fact, anybody can simply "reach across the aisle" if they have the body-type for it. In fact, the modern trend that's driving women to strive for the unattainable "size zero" benefits guys because modern gals tend to be much more slab-sided than their mothers were and therefore the clothes designed to fit the modern ideal can actually work very well on guys.

I think the future is with either: 1) DIY projects 2) Imported MUGs 3) Companies such as Apostrophe.

I'm waiting to see what the designs look like from Apostrophe. I've looked over at Midas, but it seems that their designs, like Utilikilt's, are a bit "forced" in that they seem to be going overboard on "masculinity". I feel that "masculinity" should be a component of the person, not their clothing. I am, after all, the same bloke underneath whether I'm wearing a suit-and-tie or a light wafty summer skirt and lightweight top and nobody around me seems confused by it -- curious, yes, but not confused.

I just wish the universal question about undergarments would go away.

[Grok]

I am also waiting to see what Apostrophe comes up with. I am somewhat optimistic because of the stated in interest in flexibility, and a stated willingness to listen to customers. As for forced masculinity, it strikes me as poor marketing.

[partlyscot]

"Start with a skirt, appropriate to taste and figure, and feel the breeze."

I like this.


As to the comments, on here and the Guardian article, regarding Masculinity and Femininity, I've said it before, Who gets to define them?

Yes, there are definite tendencies within the genders, but the overlap is much greater than people realise, or are prepared to accept. There is a sort of "self sorting" going on, and we are pushed by societal pressures to conform to the mean, or pushed further over to the extremes, because we fear ridicule.

I've seen pictures on here and elsewhere, that make me go, "Oh, that's too much!" but these days I'm much more likely to question that response. Is it really ridiculous intrinsically? or is it that I'm ( we're ) just not conditioned to seeing a man wear that.

I wish i could find the pictures I'm thinking of, there is a ( Russsian? ) model, or character, who likes to do scenes which really push the envelope about how a man can portray himself. One shot was him, from the side, apparently naked ( though in another shot you see he is wearing a "one sided" bikini ) striding across a street in some high heels. The first reaction is WTF? but if you stop, and look, it really accents his musculature, ( you do not want to insult this man to his face, unless you are very strong fighter ) and I could imagine many women, once they got over the shock say, "hmmmm" with a greedy smile.

But of course, "men don't do that" Who says? Of course society does, but that's my point, Masculinity/Femininty is a societal construct in many ways. A fashion if you will. I've not been a follower of fashion, for the most part.

[skirtyscot]

I am also waiting to see what Apostrophe comes up with. I am somewhat optimistic because of the stated in interest in flexibility, and a stated willingness to listen to customers. As for forced masculinity, it strikes me as poor marketing.

If the designs are anything like the skirts Dynamo is seen wearing in the links he posted, there will be no forced masculinity!

[skirtyscot]

Masculinity/Femininty is a societal construct in many ways. A fashion if you will.

Indeed. There is a flaw in the thinking of transvestites who wear women's clothes to "get in touch with their feminine side" or some such. What is it they want to say or do that they feel a man can't (or at least shouldn't) say or do? Why can't they just be caring or empathetic or into flower arranging or whatever the hell it is, while wearing men's clothes? They are caving in to society's stereotypes that say those are not manly things to do. It would be better for everyone if men felt it was OK to exhibit a broader range of behaviour.

[crfriend]

Why can't they just be caring or empathetic or into flower arranging or whatever the hell it is, while wearing dressed in men's clothes? They are caving in to society's stereotypes that say those are not manly things. It would be better for everyone if men felt it was OK to exhibit a broader range of behaviour.

This sums my opinion of the whole blasted matter up perfectly. The only change I would make to SkirtyScot's verbatim quote above (as I didn't want to alter it in situ) would be to change the first instance of the word "they" to "men" and to delete "while wearing dressed in men's clothes".

We -- men and women -- are all human. We think, we feel, and we use both of those faculties when we evaluate a situation. The ratio of each varies depending on the individual, but I will posit that all of us take both into account when decisions must be made; that's part of the way we're wired.

I am not, nor have I ever been, fond of the term "sensitive new age (pronounced to rhyme with "sewage", just to make it clear in a Penn and Teller sort of way) guy", but appreciate very much that blokes have been cordoned off into an increasingly-smaller "boxes" over time and that it's high time that those shackles be thrown asunder!

The old adage that, "Big boys don't cry" is about as fallacious as it can possibly get, and, taken to an extreme can likely cause serious mental distress to the bloke who's trying to live up to that "ideal". I'm not exactly the "Marlboro Man" (I'd be dead by now from lung cancer) nor am I a James Bond type (dead from either cirrhosis of the liver or an STD), but I'm an enough of a bloke that nobody comments otherwise in public; but yet I cry when stressed (both in happy and sad ways), I adore beautiful things (viz some of my photographs posted in this forum), and hold common decency (a waning notion, it seems) dear. These facets, I posit, make me more of a man than a lesser one as I accept and embrace them rather than trying to reject them in some sort of futile attempt to "conform".

Methinks that society has got a heck of a lot wrong with the perception of what it means to be a man. Unless, of course, all men are paedophiles and should be locked away as hyper-violent types and only have occasional conjugal visits so the species can be propagated until it's possible to artificially produce sperm.

[Caultron]

...There is a flaw in the thinking of transvestites who wear women's clothes to "get in touch with their feminine side" or some such...

Yes, I've sometimes wondered what a transvestite would wear in a society where men usually wore skirts and dresses.

I also wonder if male transvestites like the look and feel of the specific garments they choose, or whether they're role-playing the opposite sex. I suppose the answer varies with each individual, and that it's a continuous range rather than all-or-nothing.

It's interesting that we feel the need to conceal our sex with clothes, and then we communicate our sex via those same clothes.

[Sarongman]

The old adage that, "Big boys don't cry" is about as fallacious as it can possibly get, and, taken to an extreme can likely cause serious mental distress to the bloke

This is a good point when it comes to Post traumatic Stress Disorder known, nearly a century ago now, as shell shock. I see, with interest, that the Canadians are going to award a decoration on military sufferers and that there is a strong push in the U.S. to award the Purple Heart medal to U.S veterans as, to quote a Canadian Brigadier general ret'd. "This (PTSD) is as much a war wound as shrapnel in the stomach, and can be fatal".

[skirtilator]

I think the author was referring to the style as being more masculine or feminine, and not the wearer.

Of course, we'd all like to see the feminine, women-only connotation of skirts change.

But for now, at least, most people do think of skirts as women's-only garments, and some of those will conclude that a man wearing one must in some way or aspect be feminine.

The author couldn't even refer to a particular style being masculine or feminine without the artificial connection between garment and gender. People's ghosts aren't yours and I guess that's your life you live. The good thing about these social constructs is that they neither logically consistent nor permanent.

[Grok]

Just occurred to me to add a fourth possibility to my list. The Macabi skirt was designed by a woman for women. However, because it is useful for the kind of outdoor activities that males like, some men expressed interest, and so a version tailored for men was created. Perhaps an exceptional success story. However, I can imagine a company that makes running skirts for women could also make a version for men. (With my arthritic knees I am unlikely to buy one). Also, I noticed that running skirts were included in the Apostrophe concepts.