I’ve been thinking about this so called inequality you’ve been referring to, and as I’ve been seeking as much information, ideas and opinions as I can find over the last few years about this thing with men wearing women’s clothes, I was wondering if you’d be interested in sharing your opinions, ideas and views with me on what you see as inequality with what women and men wear.
Would you be willing to expand on what you mean, who you think is responsible for any inequality, where you think it originated from, do you think those who keep talking about inequality about who wears what don’t do enough themselves to try and change the views of the community, do you think there’s anyone in particular to blame be it men or women, what you think motivates the community to get their certain ideas about men who like to wear dresses. Could it be that inequality is just in the mind and imagination of certain people because they don’t, or for reasons best known to themselves, they can’t get out and express what they feel and what they wish in the way they dress.
If you’re willing to freely express your ideas then I’ll happily give you my replies and opinions of what I believe so far to be true about it all. I’ve found by talking to tens and tens, possibly hundreds of people over the last few years about all this that it’s the best way to learn and expand my knowledge about my father. My Gran was about the smartest person I’ve known and she always said that if you want to learn and know about something then don’t go to people who’ve got their knowledge out of books, go straight to someone who’s actually put their hand in the fire and not sat around the edges keeping warm, if you know what I’m getting at, so that’s what I’ve been doing and am still doing, getting the opinions of you people who live the life.
It’s been suggested that if I want to keep this topic going then it might be best to take it to another section, so I’ll leave that up to you where you take it because you know more about this forum than I do, that’s if you want to exchange opinions, if you don’t then that’s ok too.
Thanks again…Jenny
Inequality...?
Jenny...
The overall inequality here is a cultural value in which the care and display of one's body is only acceptable for women, not men. We see this for example in the world of ballet, how boys who study ballet endure so much prejudice and misinformation from the world at large. The result? There are about 99 girls for every 1 boy in the beginner levels of ballet, and professional companies can rarely hire enough men.
In the world of fashion, it's a similar story. Suppose you went to a party and ended up wearing the same dress as another woman. That would be bad. But in men's fashion, it's actually "good" for all the men at the party to dress the same. In fact, the men's fashions are not really supposed to be noticed at all.
Dance and fashion are incarnational in nature --- you BECOME something, a piece of art, so to speak. And the cultural ethic is that women SHOULD do this, and men SHOULDN'T. Men, not being allowed to take part in such incarnational activity themselves, only have the option of doing so vicariously --- that is by lusting after and admiring all the pretty women around them. And in this way, women's bodies become objectified and lessened. I don't think that is good for men or women.
Things were not always this way. Men used to dress up much more for show. Fashion historians generally believe the current ethic came about with the Industrial Revolution. During that period, men started more and more to work outside the home. And increasingly, men were valued for what they could DO, as opposed to what they WERE. Thus, there was a de-emphasis on men's BODIES and a greater emphasis on men's ACTIONS. Increasingly, anything showy became considered "feminine."
This has become extreme, a matter in which anything that women like or do is considered "feminine", "less" than manly, and generally off-limits to men. Look at http://www.babynamewizard.com to see how many previously boy's names have been feminized over the years. Not to mention pieces of clothing as well. For example, in my youth, "capris" were known as "clamdiggers" and they were for men; now you can't buy them any more. Same thing with bell bottoms, they were for men and women when they first appeared in the 70's. And in some cases, even wearing shorts seems to be unacceptable for men! (Never stopped me from wearing shorts all summer). The process rarely goes the other direction, in which something previously "feminine" becomes the domain of men.
We as men are losing, bit by bit, our ability to be expressive with our bodies.
Finally, please let me point out that SkirtCafe is not really about men wearing "women's" clothing. That is too simplistic of a view. Rather, it is about a change in men's fashions, based on the idea that men have great bodies too, and it is OK to display men's bodies in tasteful ways. And that can involve skirts. Skirts are a powerful symbol for the general idea of fashion freedom.
Since such clothing is so sorely lacking in the men's sections of today's fashion stores, we do end up buying and wearing stuff from the women's section. However, that is no different from the first women who wore jeans, who bought them from the men's section. Nor is it so different from how women regularly buy stuff from the men's section today if they like the way it looks or fits. There's nothing wrong with that.
However, many of the outfits shared on SkirtCafe involve clothing marked as "men's" as well. Pretty much anything called a "kilt" was marketed for men. And more often than not, we see men wearing men's shirts or T-shirts, one rarely sees scooping women's necklines on SkirtCafe; such necklines can often look funny on a man's chest.
In any case, if you've had a chance to look around at the recent pictures, you can see that the outfits our members are putting together are generally not typical for women. There are plenty of women's styles and looks that I've never seen anyone try on SkirtCafe, probably for good reason.
To be fair, the "inequality" here isn't all good for women. Yes, women "can" wear whatever they like, but not really. Women are constrained to wear what makes them and their bodies "proper" for the situation. Moreover, people are always looking at women's bodies and evalutating women based on that, even when it's completely irrelevant; thus, women have to fuss over dressing right and looking right just to be respected in the workplace or in day to day life, whereas men only have to throw on a suit. Women are often required to wear impractical clothing, even when they don't want to --- short skirts in cold weather, high heels at work, pantyhose, etc.
My belief is that a lessening of the inequality here will be helpful for men and women alike. Women need to be more valued for what they can DO, without having to look pretty all the time while doing it. Men need to be more valued for what they ARE. I do not wish to see the current women's fashion ethic (which is consumerist and unforgiving) simply be adopted for men too.
The overall inequality here is a cultural value in which the care and display of one's body is only acceptable for women, not men. We see this for example in the world of ballet, how boys who study ballet endure so much prejudice and misinformation from the world at large. The result? There are about 99 girls for every 1 boy in the beginner levels of ballet, and professional companies can rarely hire enough men.
In the world of fashion, it's a similar story. Suppose you went to a party and ended up wearing the same dress as another woman. That would be bad. But in men's fashion, it's actually "good" for all the men at the party to dress the same. In fact, the men's fashions are not really supposed to be noticed at all.
Dance and fashion are incarnational in nature --- you BECOME something, a piece of art, so to speak. And the cultural ethic is that women SHOULD do this, and men SHOULDN'T. Men, not being allowed to take part in such incarnational activity themselves, only have the option of doing so vicariously --- that is by lusting after and admiring all the pretty women around them. And in this way, women's bodies become objectified and lessened. I don't think that is good for men or women.
Things were not always this way. Men used to dress up much more for show. Fashion historians generally believe the current ethic came about with the Industrial Revolution. During that period, men started more and more to work outside the home. And increasingly, men were valued for what they could DO, as opposed to what they WERE. Thus, there was a de-emphasis on men's BODIES and a greater emphasis on men's ACTIONS. Increasingly, anything showy became considered "feminine."
This has become extreme, a matter in which anything that women like or do is considered "feminine", "less" than manly, and generally off-limits to men. Look at http://www.babynamewizard.com to see how many previously boy's names have been feminized over the years. Not to mention pieces of clothing as well. For example, in my youth, "capris" were known as "clamdiggers" and they were for men; now you can't buy them any more. Same thing with bell bottoms, they were for men and women when they first appeared in the 70's. And in some cases, even wearing shorts seems to be unacceptable for men! (Never stopped me from wearing shorts all summer). The process rarely goes the other direction, in which something previously "feminine" becomes the domain of men.
We as men are losing, bit by bit, our ability to be expressive with our bodies.
Finally, please let me point out that SkirtCafe is not really about men wearing "women's" clothing. That is too simplistic of a view. Rather, it is about a change in men's fashions, based on the idea that men have great bodies too, and it is OK to display men's bodies in tasteful ways. And that can involve skirts. Skirts are a powerful symbol for the general idea of fashion freedom.
Since such clothing is so sorely lacking in the men's sections of today's fashion stores, we do end up buying and wearing stuff from the women's section. However, that is no different from the first women who wore jeans, who bought them from the men's section. Nor is it so different from how women regularly buy stuff from the men's section today if they like the way it looks or fits. There's nothing wrong with that.
However, many of the outfits shared on SkirtCafe involve clothing marked as "men's" as well. Pretty much anything called a "kilt" was marketed for men. And more often than not, we see men wearing men's shirts or T-shirts, one rarely sees scooping women's necklines on SkirtCafe; such necklines can often look funny on a man's chest.
In any case, if you've had a chance to look around at the recent pictures, you can see that the outfits our members are putting together are generally not typical for women. There are plenty of women's styles and looks that I've never seen anyone try on SkirtCafe, probably for good reason.
To be fair, the "inequality" here isn't all good for women. Yes, women "can" wear whatever they like, but not really. Women are constrained to wear what makes them and their bodies "proper" for the situation. Moreover, people are always looking at women's bodies and evalutating women based on that, even when it's completely irrelevant; thus, women have to fuss over dressing right and looking right just to be respected in the workplace or in day to day life, whereas men only have to throw on a suit. Women are often required to wear impractical clothing, even when they don't want to --- short skirts in cold weather, high heels at work, pantyhose, etc.
My belief is that a lessening of the inequality here will be helpful for men and women alike. Women need to be more valued for what they can DO, without having to look pretty all the time while doing it. Men need to be more valued for what they ARE. I do not wish to see the current women's fashion ethic (which is consumerist and unforgiving) simply be adopted for men too.
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ChristopherJ
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I don't wear women's clothes Jennifer. I wear my clothes. Bob has set out the point of view of most people here, including myself, in some detail.I’ve been seeking as much information, ideas and opinions as I can find over the last few years about this thing with men wearing women’s clothes . . .
It struck me that it may help in your research if you look through your own wardrobe and pick out all of the 'male' items of clothing that you own - such as trousers, jeans, suits, suit jackets, boots etc. - and ask yourself the question - why do you wear men's clothes?
It's never too late to have a happy childhood . . .
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crfriend
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As do I -- even when I happen to borrow them from my wife. In thinking about it, I've pretty well tossed the notion of "mens'" versus "womens'" clothes: made it, in a way, obsolete and potentially misleading. And I'm hoping that's the way that society will begin to go in the next few dozen years. See, the notion is obsolete in many circles, and is only doggedly held onto in various forms of rigid structuralism that you get at ossified places that require that men wear only suits and ties and that women only wear skirts or dresses with stockings and heels. Or places with other sorts of hang-ups.ChristopherJ wrote:I don't wear women's clothes Jennifer. I wear my clothes.I’ve been seeking as much information, ideas and opinions as I can find over the last few years about this thing with men wearing women’s clothes . . .
I don clothes -- they don't put me on -- and I look unmistakably like a guy, so the notion that taking something "from the other side of the aisle" will somehow "feminise" (there's a word that should be banned; it's usually used as a slur) me is inane. But, when I'm wearing something other than the male uniform of tr*users, I try to make it (all of it) look good as a cohesive whole, not as a random assemblage.
I think that might be an interesting exercise for pretty much everyone to try from time to time -- actually think about things, and then quietly ask one's self, "Why?": especially in a general sort of way. If more people did that, maybe there'd be less stupid behaviour.ChristopherJ wrote:It struck me that it may help in your research if you look through your own wardrobe and pick out all of the 'male' items of clothing that you own - such as trousers, jeans, suits, suit jackets, boots etc. - and ask yourself the question - why do you wear men's clothes?
Retrocomputing -- It's not just a job, it's an adventure!
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Emerald Witch
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Dang. I've been got.ChristopherJ wrote:It struck me that it may help in your research if you look through your own wardrobe and pick out all of the 'male' items of clothing that you own - such as trousers, jeans, suits, suit jackets, boots etc. - and ask yourself the question - why do you wear men's clothes?
Gotta go re-examine my own wardrobe now.
Well put, Christopher!
Going back to Bob's post concerning fashion changes and the Industrial Revolution. Men, Women and children worked in factories during and after the Industrial Revolution. Women wore the full skirts that they were expected to wear. That clothing caught in the machinery and killed them.
One of the historical figurese who did the most damage to men's fashions was Beau Brummel. It was his influence that turned fashion for men away from bright colors and flamboyance to somber colors.
There was a time when a women in trousers was s candalous.
I think the social changes following World War II had a tremendous impact on fashions. Think of the conservative fashion and conformity of the 1950s and the fashion backlash of the 1960s and 1970s. These fashion changes historically accompanied the various "movements", civil rights, and in particular women's liberation.
The "establishment", the power base was white businessmen. Unfortunately, men bore the brunt of the other social changes. They still maintained their overall power base, but the found that they were as stuffed into boxes just as much as blacks and women had.
I think what we are seeing with regards to expanding fashion freedom for men is an outgrowth of the struggles for equality that came from the 1960s and 1970s.
Today, I have the freedom to choose to wear pants where and when I want. I didn't always have that choice. It is time for men to gain that freedom and flexibility of fashion expression.
Diana
One of the historical figurese who did the most damage to men's fashions was Beau Brummel. It was his influence that turned fashion for men away from bright colors and flamboyance to somber colors.
There was a time when a women in trousers was s candalous.
I think the social changes following World War II had a tremendous impact on fashions. Think of the conservative fashion and conformity of the 1950s and the fashion backlash of the 1960s and 1970s. These fashion changes historically accompanied the various "movements", civil rights, and in particular women's liberation.
The "establishment", the power base was white businessmen. Unfortunately, men bore the brunt of the other social changes. They still maintained their overall power base, but the found that they were as stuffed into boxes just as much as blacks and women had.
I think what we are seeing with regards to expanding fashion freedom for men is an outgrowth of the struggles for equality that came from the 1960s and 1970s.
Today, I have the freedom to choose to wear pants where and when I want. I didn't always have that choice. It is time for men to gain that freedom and flexibility of fashion expression.
Diana
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Departed Member
I'm not at all sure that is correct. Having lived through that rapidly changing period, I saw far more lads 'expressing their fashion freedom' then than is likely to happen in the near future. It wasn't that unusual in those days ('70s) to see lads in skirts - way, way more than today! I remember Kilts/kilted skirts being sold in 'sets' for "punk" couples (usu. in Royal Stewart - vulgar red tartan that it is!) in "CJ" (mini) length, the only difference being, of course(!) that the lad's version fastened left over right! On top of that, the (long, black) Goth skirts weren't so uncommon, either. Thank goodness, these are making a belated come-back, although more on mainland Europe than the UK, from what I've seen.sapphire wrote: I think what we are seeing with regards to expanding fashion freedom for men is an outgrowth of the struggles for equality that came from the 1960s and 1970s. Diana
'Traditional' (i.e., "English"!) Kilts were still a common sight in Scotland back then, but Football/Weddings apart, you're far more likely to see Kilts in England than any other part of the UK nowadays!
The thing I dislike the most about 'fashion freedom' is the inclusion of that word, 'fashion'. What happened then ('70s), well, just went 'out of fashion' - to the extent that 'fashion' - for men (and equally sadly, as time draws on, women) was dealt a massive 'body blow' by the creeping blandness of Jeans - ugh!
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crfriend
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Whilst it's axiomatic that loose flowing clothing can be, indeed is, dangerous in the proximity of high-speed machinery, I suspect that far more were killed by other factors common at the time (viz the Triangle Shirtwaist Factory fire of 1911). This is not meant in an apologist's sense because of "dress codes" but due to other historical contexts. And, put bluntly, they devalued human life; in short, "they sucked".sapphire wrote:Going back to Bob's post concerning fashion changes and the Industrial Revolution. Men, Women and children worked in factories during and after the Industrial Revolution. Women wore the full skirts that they were expected to wear. That clothing caught in the machinery and killed them.
High-speed machinery is a constant companion in my life; I deal with pulleys and belts very frequently as I deal with my automobile or some of the mechanical bits at work. I also engage in recreation that would forbid, for instance, floppy lace cuffs. I'm also slowly coming to the conclusion that it wasn't just the Industrial Revolution that doomed mens' clothing to a bland Hell. It was something far more insidious.
I'd heard the old joke of, "Beau Brummel is alive an well in Paris" ages ago, long before I took an even remote interest in fashion. It was only recently that I actually got the thrust of the joke -- you just can't find him!Sapphire wrote:One of the historical figurese who did the most damage to men's fashions was Beau Brummel. It was his influence that turned fashion for men away from bright colors and flamboyance to somber colors.
I'm not sure on that count. I "came of age" in the '70s, and it was a very interesting time to do so. But, it's also going on 40 years ago -- well more than your typical human generation. We may be seeing something new here; I doubt that there's enough communal recollection of the '70s to form much of anything nowadays other than a knee-jerk ridicule of the "leisure suit".Sapphire wrote:I think what we are seeing with regards to expanding fashion freedom for men is an outgrowth of the struggles for equality that came from the 1960s and 1970s.
And that's to be lauded. There were enough abuses in the past. I'd like to acknowledge those abuses, admit that they've (largely) been slain, and move on to the injustices felt by the guys -- even the very rare ones that desire to move beyond tr*users.Sapphire wrote:Today, I have the freedom to choose to wear pants where and when I want
Thanks!Sapphire wrote:I didn't always have that choice. It is time for men to gain that freedom and flexibility of fashion expression.
Retrocomputing -- It's not just a job, it's an adventure!
Merlin,
You are correct. The fashions in the UK during the 60s and 70s were far more advanced than those in the US.
But, something happened and set fashion back. It has to be something beyond fashion not being fashionable. There was some social change that caused fashion to revert to more restrictive. I'm not sure what that "something" was. Do you have any insights as to what happened?
Thanks,
Diana
You are correct. The fashions in the UK during the 60s and 70s were far more advanced than those in the US.
But, something happened and set fashion back. It has to be something beyond fashion not being fashionable. There was some social change that caused fashion to revert to more restrictive. I'm not sure what that "something" was. Do you have any insights as to what happened?
Thanks,
Diana
Carl,
You missed my point about the Industrial Revolution influencing fashion. I don't think it revolutionized fashion.
Fashion for women was pretty much the same when the 1911 fire occurred. The problems of working conditions is more of an OSHA problem than a fashion issue. BTW, 1911 was waaay after the Industrial Revolution.
To your point about not wearing womens clothing, you do it all the time. You wear my clothing, clothing that I bought and paid for. Tonight you wore MY skirt. If you want to wear "your" clothing, then buy from me those garments that you have usurped from my wardrobe.
While I support the acceptance of men wearing skirts, I take exception to your trivialization and dismissal of the abuses that women, and me in particular, have suffered.
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You missed my point about the Industrial Revolution influencing fashion. I don't think it revolutionized fashion.
Fashion for women was pretty much the same when the 1911 fire occurred. The problems of working conditions is more of an OSHA problem than a fashion issue. BTW, 1911 was waaay after the Industrial Revolution.
To your point about not wearing womens clothing, you do it all the time. You wear my clothing, clothing that I bought and paid for. Tonight you wore MY skirt. If you want to wear "your" clothing, then buy from me those garments that you have usurped from my wardrobe.
While I support the acceptance of men wearing skirts, I take exception to your trivialization and dismissal of the abuses that women, and me in particular, have suffered.
[/b]
Sapphire, I agree with you whoelheartedly. As far as I can see, women are still not (yet) treated as equals to men in the wider society. We need to continue working toward that goal.
Jennifer, I wanted to respond to a couple of things you said more specifically.
If your father is involved in a "crossdressing lifestyle," then my simplest, most direct opinion on that is he would do himself a favor to throw out his wigs, bras, breast forms and femme name, and come out and wear a skirt like a man. He would be welcome here if that's what he wants to do. As they say, "it takes balls to wear a skirt."
Jennifer, I wanted to respond to a couple of things you said more specifically.
We've found again and again that the biggest negative view is in oneself. The community can be very accepting, but first the man who wants to wear a skirt has to realize that. We've also found that the UK is maybe 10-20 years ahead of the USA on this issue; there are a lot more men wearing skirts and kilts across the pond. And Europe too.do you think those who keep talking about inequality about who wears what don’t do enough themselves to try and change the views of the community
I don't know. Not many men on SkirtCafe wear dresses, since most dresses are hopelessly mis-shapen for the male body. But the few dresses that have been found to work on men --- well, they look pretty sharp and the men who have worn them report a lot of positive response out "in the field".what you think motivates the community to get their certain ideas about men who like to wear dresses.
Yes, I believe that is often the case.Could it be that inequality is just in the mind and imagination of certain people because they don’t, or for reasons best known to themselves, they can’t get out and express what they feel and what they wish in the way they dress.
I'm interested in hearing.If you’re willing to freely express your ideas then I’ll happily give you my replies and opinions of what I believe so far to be true about it all.
Certainly a noble pursuit. Unfortunately, I'm not sure how much knowledge about your father you will glean from this online community. For one thing, we don't "live the life." Crossdressing is a lifestyle. But Skirts are not a lifestyle, they are fashion. So are bell bottoms. SkirtCafe is a website about men's fashion. Admittedly, "on-the-edge" fashion, but it's still fashion....it’s the best way to learn and expand my knowledge about my father... so that’s what I’ve been doing and am still doing, getting the opinions of you people who live the life.
If your father is involved in a "crossdressing lifestyle," then my simplest, most direct opinion on that is he would do himself a favor to throw out his wigs, bras, breast forms and femme name, and come out and wear a skirt like a man. He would be welcome here if that's what he wants to do. As they say, "it takes balls to wear a skirt."
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Stu
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Jennifer
Most of the time, I wear trousers - I like trousers - I don't want to wear skirts for most of what I do. All I want is a comparable choice to that which females enjoy - and yet to do so while looking unmistakably male.
Skirts and dresses are extremely simple, basic garments. The only difference they have with what a man is expected to wear is that they do not divide the legs. How have we got to the situation in which it has been decided that 50% of the population are free to wear such garments while the other 50% MUST wear garments that divide the legs. This status quo is both illogical and grotesquely unfair - and it exists in a society which is supposedly more rational than ever before AND goes to extreme lengths to show the two sexes are treated equally.
If a man wants to dress up as a woman, the issue is his identity and is a psychological one. What he is doing harms no-one and he should be given every facility to do so without experiencing formal sanction or social ridicule or stigma.
If a man wants to wear a skirt or dress while retaining a masculine image, that is an issue of fashion and nothing more. Fashions change with the wind and should be made to adapt so that, so far as possible, all tastes and preferences are catered for and the present state of sartorial hegemony is dismantled.
Stu
Most of the time, I wear trousers - I like trousers - I don't want to wear skirts for most of what I do. All I want is a comparable choice to that which females enjoy - and yet to do so while looking unmistakably male.
Skirts and dresses are extremely simple, basic garments. The only difference they have with what a man is expected to wear is that they do not divide the legs. How have we got to the situation in which it has been decided that 50% of the population are free to wear such garments while the other 50% MUST wear garments that divide the legs. This status quo is both illogical and grotesquely unfair - and it exists in a society which is supposedly more rational than ever before AND goes to extreme lengths to show the two sexes are treated equally.
If a man wants to dress up as a woman, the issue is his identity and is a psychological one. What he is doing harms no-one and he should be given every facility to do so without experiencing formal sanction or social ridicule or stigma.
If a man wants to wear a skirt or dress while retaining a masculine image, that is an issue of fashion and nothing more. Fashions change with the wind and should be made to adapt so that, so far as possible, all tastes and preferences are catered for and the present state of sartorial hegemony is dismantled.
Stu
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Ray
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Thanks, Merlin. Having done a little bit of reading, I see that it was an Englishman who, in Argyll, Scotland, created the "small kilt", as he was frustrated with the design of the larger (presumably "great") kilt.merlin wrote:A tailored Kilt, ala 'Rawlinson', now regarded as the 'traditional' Kilt.Ray wrote: Sorry, Merlin, you've lost me there. What's an "English" kilt?
Of course, it was a Scot, Iain McDonell, who copied it....
