Gendered Clothing Norms

[Stu]

We had a visit from my sister-in-law who is a medical secretary. I related to her the amateur dramatics story because she lives quite close to the theatre mentioned and knows some of the people who used to run it. Our conversation expanded and she mentioned a case quite different in character but vaguely relevant. It relates to someone she knows who has twin girls aged 9 who are prone to atopic eczema around their waists and upper thighs when it’s either very warm or very cold. She was told to apply emollient and also a corticosteroid ointment twice daily when the symptoms occur and to keep them in dresses (no skirts or trousers or anything restrictive around the waist except thin cotton underwear until the symptoms disappear). This is a process she follows diligently and it works and gives the girls some relief. She also has a five-year-old son who appears to be starting with the same symptoms, but is yet to be formally diagnosed. The ointment routine will no doubt be fine for him, but what about the dresses? She says that, having twin girls who have to wear dresses a lot means she has a mountain of beautiful and immaculate cotton dresses from ages 5 and above and that would in theory be perfectly wearable by her son, would be practical and relieve his symptoms. This lady is frustrated by the fact that she will be forced to dump the dresses and try to find and pay for a range of boys’ clothes that somehow work nearly as well as the dresses. This is absurd. Here's a practical situation where gender-specific clothing norms directly interfere with potential medical treatment. The mother's frustration is entirely justified. She has perfectly suitable clothing that could help her son's medical condition, but societal expectations wear will force her to spend money on less appropriate alternatives, purely because of arbitrary and irrational gendered clothing norms.

[Coder]

The problem, as I see it is two-fold.

1) Society expects men/boys to dress a certain way - and therefore we can't "escape" those confines without being looked at as strange or at least eccentric

2) She can't and obviously shouldn't force her son to wear dresses even if that's "best" from a medical standpoint - what we are advocating is fashion freedom - and not crossing boundaries for boundaries sake. If the kid doesn't want to wear them, he shouldn't have to.

The problem is, he doesn't really have a choice in the matter because of #1.

It's a problem - no doubt and we all decry the situation we are in - but what do we do to change minds and opinions?

[moonshadow]

If the mother and boy are concerned about the social implications of him wearing "a dress" as general wear, have they considered a similar garment that would serve the same purpose such as a kaftan? Those are completely acceptable men's wear and generally don't carry the same social stigma that a typical "girls dress" might.

The cost shouldn't be too unreasonable.

I don't think a kilt would suffice for the same reason a skirt won't. But a kaftan or something like a monk's robe should work.

[Stu]

1) Society expects men/boys to dress a certain way - and therefore we can't "escape" those confines without being looked at as strange or at least eccentric

Isn't that what we are challenging on here?

2) She can't and obviously shouldn't force her son to wear dresses even if that's "best" from a medical standpoint - what we are advocating is fashion freedom - and not crossing boundaries for boundaries sake. If the kid doesn't want to wear them, he shouldn't have to.

I don't think anyone would advocate forcing him to wear dresses. The argument is it should be an option for him to do so and the only thing stopping him is an arbitrary and irrational taboo on boys wearing anything other than trousers.

The problem is, he doesn't really have a choice in the matter because of #1. It's a problem - no doubt and we all decry the situation we are in - but what do we do to change minds and opinions?

He might have a choice if he lives in a social environment where others accept him and don't judge. Your last sentence is the $64,000 question and I have no answer for that. All I am doing is highlighting how seemingly trivial social conventions can have real, tangible impacts on individuals' lives, especially children. Maybe if this is highlighted enough, things will change.

[Stu]

have they considered a similar garment that would serve the same purpose such as a kaftan? Those are completely acceptable men's wear and generally don't carry the same social stigma that a typical "girls dress" might.

True, but have you ever seen any kaftans for small boys? And should he be faced with a choice between being mistaken for a girl or an Arab? And if his mum has a mountain of perfectly serviceable dresses, isn't it absurd that they will be thrown away or given away and new clothing have to be purchased?

I am not offering answers - just trying to show how ludicrous it is to have such arbitrary and irrational taboos on dress.

[moonshadow]

I am not offering answers - just trying to show how ludicrous it is to have such arbitrary and irrational taboos on dress.

Oh yeah, don't get me wrong. It is ridiculous. But... the world is what it is.

We all know what will happen when/if he wears his sister's dress out in public. Half of society will think he's trying to be a girl, the other half will insist he's a boy, but sides will get their noses out of joint about the truth of the situation.

Hey.... who ever said humans were a reasonable and just lot?

Certainly not me.

[crfriend]

The answer is easy. Ask the mother to ask her son whether he'd mind wearing a dress as part of the treatment for the condition. If he accedes to the question give him a dress and let him get used to it for a few days before venturing outside. He'll get used to the fit/feel/look on his own terms and likely be able to deal with what passes for "society" throws at him. Odds are, once he gets used to the feeling of the garment on him, he'll probably like it as being non-confining.

We don't give children proper credit for being resilient creatures. We need to reconsider that aspect.

[Barleymower]

The answer is easy. Ask the mother to ask her son whether he'd mind wearing a dress as part of the treatment for the condition. If he accedes to the question give him a dress and let him get used to it for a few days before venturing outside. He'll get used to the fit/feel/look on his own terms and likely be able to deal with what passes for "society" throws at him. Odds are, once he gets used to the feeling of the garment on him, he'll probably like it as being non-confining.

We don't give children proper credit for being resilient creatures. We need to reconsider that aspect.

Isn't what you say happening with girls everywhere? At lot of girls reject skirts and dresses because they want to jump around and make a mess like the boys. Dresses are often too good for climbing etc.
They are told "try it you will like it" they try it and they like it and nowadays they can have both.
I was also listening at a R4 story about a girl brought up on a farm. "Stay away from the Pheasants pen" she was told.
"So of course I had to go up there" she said.
What else am I reminded of?

[Stu]

Odds are, once he gets used to the feeling of the garment on him, he'll probably like it as being non-confining.

What he will discover is that it's basically a long shirt - long enough he can wear it without trousers or shorts. Why is such a fuss made about such a simple garment?

[Jim]

What he will discover is that it's basically a long shirt - long enough he can wear it without trousers or shorts. Why is such a fuss made about such a simple garment?

It depends on the dress. I don't know what hand-me-downs are available.

I have some that are just knee-length tee-shirts, and then there is this that I won't wear out of the house:

deb5_1cs.jpg

[robehickman]

We had a visit from my sister-in-law who is a medical secretary. I related to her the amateur dramatics story because she lives quite close to the theatre mentioned and knows some of the people who used to run it. Our conversation expanded and she mentioned a case quite different in character but vaguely relevant. It relates to someone she knows who has twin girls aged 9 who are prone to atopic eczema around their waists and upper thighs when it’s either very warm or very cold. She was told to apply emollient and also a corticosteroid ointment twice daily when the symptoms occur and to keep them in dresses (no skirts or trousers or anything restrictive around the waist except thin cotton underwear until the symptoms disappear). This is a process she follows diligently and it works and gives the girls some relief. She also has a five-year-old son who appears to be starting with the same symptoms, but is yet to be formally diagnosed. The ointment routine will no doubt be fine for him, but what about the dresses? She says that, having twin girls who have to wear dresses a lot means she has a mountain of beautiful and immaculate cotton dresses from ages 5 and above and that would in theory be perfectly wearable by her son, would be practical and relieve his symptoms. This lady is frustrated by the fact that she will be forced to dump the dresses and try to find and pay for a range of boys’ clothes that somehow work nearly as well as the dresses. This is absurd. Here's a practical situation where gender-specific clothing norms directly interfere with potential medical treatment. The mother's frustration is entirely justified. She has perfectly suitable clothing that could help her son's medical condition, but societal expectations wear will force her to spend money on less appropriate alternatives, purely because of arbitrary and irrational gendered clothing norms.

This would be a good opportunity to teach self resilience. He could be taught to communicate to anyone that asks: 'I am wearing a dress because I have recognised medical condition X, pressure on my skin at the waist is painful'.

Teach children to stand up for themselves, not to be submissive.

[Jim]

This would be a good opportunity to teach self resilience. He could be taught to communicate to anyone that asks: 'I am wearing a dress because I have recognised medical condition X, pressure on my skin at the waist is painful'.

Teach children to stand up for themselves, not to be submissive.

Excellent response. Only works if this is what the boy wants, of course.

[Coder]

I don't think anyone would advocate forcing him to wear dresses. The argument is it should be an option for him to do so and the only thing stopping him is an arbitrary and irrational taboo on boys wearing anything other than trousers.

I agree with all of this - and wasn't trying to imply you or anyone were advocating forcing him to wear anything. I guess I was working from the negative perspective - that if it were something the mother wanted her son to wear - but the son didn't. And I think if she did, he would reject the idea due to #1.

He might have a choice if he lives in a social environment where others accept him and don't judge. Your last sentence is the $64,000 question and I have no answer for that. All I am doing is highlighting how seemingly trivial social conventions can have real, tangible impacts on individuals' lives, especially children. Maybe if this is highlighted enough, things will change.

Yeah - that was my main point - what could we possibly do to bring about changing #1. I guess posting things here is helpful - but I doubt the general public cares.

[crfriend]

The answer is easy. Ask the mother to ask her son whether he'd mind wearing a dress as part of the treatment for the condition. If he accedes to the question give him a dress and let him get used to it for a few days before venturing outside. He'll get used to the fit/feel/look on his own terms and likely be able to deal with what passes for "society" throws at him. Odds are, once he gets used to the feeling of the garment on him, he'll probably like it as being non-confining.

We don't give children proper credit for being resilient creatures. We need to reconsider that aspect.

Isn't what you say happening with girls everywhere? At lot of girls reject skirts and dresses because they want to jump around and make a mess like the boys. Dresses are often too good for climbing etc.

The point you're missing is that sort of behaviour has been completely normalised for girls. Not so, boys.

If we keep parroting the same 'ol same 'ol, all we can expect is the same 'ol. We need to change the thinking.

[Coder]

The point you're missing is that sort of behaviour has been completely normalised for girls. Not so, boys.

If we keep parroting the same 'ol same 'ol, all we can expect is the same 'ol. We need to change the thinking.

Was it normalized? I mean - I know they had to FIGHT for the right to wear pants... but it seems they've always had an "in" that let them take over - or at least adopt - men's apparel and functions. It seems that whenever women move into an area - men tend to shrink back and let them be the lead once said area is "a female pursuit". Am I glossing over the horrors that have been the past, and what some consider the present, state of things?

(also - do not attribute a moral sense to what I write - I'm trying to state an observation)