Non-Binary Models in Fashion

[mr seamstress]

Are non-binary models in fashion industry helping all men be accepted wearing dresses or skirts? Are they promoting clothes should be inclusive? On the catwalk we have non-binary models modeling different clothes. Same model can be found modeling shirts and pants for men and modeling skirts and dresses for women.
There seem be no discussion on this subject.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/lifestyle/lif ... fa11&ei=77

[happykilt]

Are non-binary models in fashion industry helping all men be accepted wearing dresses or skirts?
....
Same model can be found modeling shirts and pants for men and modeling skirts and dresses for women.

No, not at all.
They represent the idea, that wearing a skirt or dress is a gender issue. To don a skirt means that your gender has to be a woman.

[Stu]

I have some thoughts on this.

1. If models can increase their earning capacity by modelling clothes for both sexes as well as unisex items, then that's brilliant. More power to them!

2. People can "identify" as anything they like - man, woman, wildebeest, piece of Roquefort cheese, whatever. However, if this does not accord with biological (etc) reality, they cannot demand others buy into their assertion. Humans, like all mammals, birds and most species of fish and insects, are a sexually dimorphic species - you are either male or female. Of course there are a minuscule proportion of people who have a genetic disorder whereby this is not clear cut. Such people are rare and we should of course allow them to determine for themselves where they fit into the sex binary. On the other hand, some people experience gender dysmorphia, genuinely believe they are the other sex and want to be considered as such. When we encounter such people in normal life, we can't know their chromosomes or intimate physiology, so have to rely upon signifiers including height, body shape, hair (head hair, facial hair and body hair), speech/voice, gait, clothing, footwear and accessories and make a judgment on those characteristics. We might also ask their name. It is very rarely an issue in day-to-day human interactions and, when it is, we can navigate it without causing much offence if we get it wrong. If it bothers you and you want to minimise the risk of people misgendering you, look at the signifiers you are putting out. If you have a large, bushy beard, I will consider you male in all circumstances unless there is a compelling reason to do otherwise. If you don't have facial hair, but are presenting as a woman according to traditional signifiers, I will consider you female, even if I suspect that might not be the full story. In other word, give me a clue. Notwithstanding this, a person is not "non-binary" because there is no such thing. Claims that it is a thing are ideologically predicated and I am under no obligation to buy into that.

3. People have names; nobody has pronouns as this word class is functional rather than lexical and is a property of our grammar. If asked my pronouns, I say "none" (which is a pronoun, incidentally). The choice of which third person pronouns and possessive determiners are used is the prerogative of the speaker and not the referent. You don't get to dictate to others which pronouns they use when referring to you. If someone tries to do that to me, I have every right to ignore them. The pronouns "they", "them" and "theirs", along with reflexive "themselves", and the determiner "their", are for plural referents. There is a small exception where it is either impossible to know the gender of the referent is, e.g. if it's a hypothetical situation, otherwise this pronoun set is for plurals only and trying to apply it to a known singular is both semantically and grammatically problematic.

[Barleymower]

Mr seamstress NB models have been around for a while now on catwalk or runways but I'm not seeing an influence or connection with people who have jobs in offices and building sites etc.
Isn't the catwalk there to exposé the future fashion? Designs are picked, made and sold in expensive boutiques and filter down to the population. We see big stars showcasing these new fashions and maybe the general population will pick up on it and it becomes "fashionable".
The problem I see is that men are now locked in the "manbox" created for them and there's no way out. Maybe they really like the new fashion and what the NB models are wearing but it is so far detached form their world that they brush it aside.

[steamman]

Are non-binary models in fashion industry helping all men be accepted wearing dresses or skirts?
....
Same model can be found modeling shirts and pants for men and modeling skirts and dresses for women.

No, not at all.
They represent the idea, that wearing a skirt or dress is a gender issue. To don a skirt means that your gender has to be a woman.

Odd comment. By definition, NB people do NOT identify with male or female gender construct (note I said gender, not sex, which is completely different) so if anything it promotes the correct concept that clothes are genderless. Gender is a social construct.

[DrFishnets]

The only thing that’s Non-Binary about me is my choice of clothes. Other than that I’m heterosexual and male and I’m happy that way. I like to see pants, trousers, shirts, t shirts, jeans, skirts, dresses, tights etc as clothing worn by any gender.

[happykilt]

Are non-binary models in fashion industry helping all men be accepted wearing dresses or skirts?
....
Same model can be found modeling shirts and pants for men and modeling skirts and dresses for women.

No, not at all.
They represent the idea, that wearing a skirt or dress is a gender issue. To don a skirt means that your gender has to be a woman.

Odd comment. By definition, NB people do NOT identify with male or female gender construct (note I said gender, not sex, which is completely different) so if anything it promotes the correct concept that clothes are genderless. Gender is a social construct.

Odd...
Maybe my English is not perfect...

By modelling skirts ONLY as womenswear and trousers ONLY as menswear, they represent the idea, that clothes are a gender issue. You have to identify with that gender or be non-binary to wear certain types of clothes.

Compare: "Same model can be found modeling shirts and pants for men and modeling skirts and dresses for women."

[Myopic Bookworm]

Non-binary models are modelling trousers for men and other people, and skirts for women and other people. They are therefore eroding the idea that you have to be of a particular gender to wear certain clothes. If you (or the fashion commentators) project an assumption of gendered clothing on to a model who is not asserting a gender identity, then the gender is in the eye of the beholder. If I see a non-binary person modelling a skirt, I am more interested than I would be if it were modelled by a female woman of the opposite sex.

[denimini]

I don't think they help or hinder acceptability of men wearing skirts. The term non-binary will only be relevent as long as the stereotypical binary dress codes and behaviours remain. Gender is only a construct of society, biological sex is a physiological state most of us are born with.
Then the question "How will we know if someone is a man or a woman?" and the answer may or should be "Why do you need to know unless you are wanting an intimate relationship having personal preferences, wanting to procreate with them or a doctor deciding to perform a prostate check or pap smear?"
As for pronouns; you don't need them if you know the persons name, be it Chris, Robin or whatever.

Most of my friends are friends because of shared interests regardless of gender.

[Faldaguy]

Are non-binary models in fashion industry helping all men be accepted wearing dresses or skirts?

I suspect the response is quite personal; those men already inclined to wear skirts, may get a bit of a boost as will those who also identify as NB: however, for the majority of men in their manbox rut -- I doubt many even look at such runway/fashion presentations, and if they do they won't identify enough with the NB look to be influenced toward whatever fashion that person is modeling.

Only when we see a plethora of men dressed like the men on this site in our daily affairs will the emotionally dried out entities realize they too have options.

[Seb]

The more non traditional female looking models that model skirts/dresses/shoes etc, the looser the ties of said clothes to the concept of femininity will be. I think it helps our cause, by undermining the idea that skirts and dresses are the epitome of feminine.