Company dress code

[moonshadow]

Just reading a thread about wearing skirts at work. Now I was pretty sure that it wasn't allowed for men where I work to wear skirts on the job, but I had to see if for myself in black and white. Well actually the text in the official handbook is blue.

Now the handbook is a moot point anyway as I'm a corporate employee and subject to non-store level dress codes. I myself am required to wear a full company issue uniform that includes a shirt and pants. I'm not sure what the corporate level office employees are required to wear. I would venture a guess it would be what's normally acceptable in a office like environment. Where as, men must wear long dress pants and a nice shirt and tie. Women, as always can wear anything they want as long as it's tasteful.

I seem to recall this blatant act of discrimination challenged in a high court (not sure if it was the U.S. supreme court, or state level), however the result was that this form of gender discrimination apparently is legal. Funny, if the shoe was on the other foot (requiring women to wear SKIRTS), I somehow think it would be ruled illegal, but I digress....

Interesting that according to the store level company handbook where I work, in a nutshell, as far as pants an skirts go, for front end employees, (cashiers, baggers), stockers, clerks, et cetera men must wear trousers and women of course can wear either trousers or skirts. This also applies to department heads and other store level management, as well as bakery/deli employees.

What's interesting is that when it goes into the meat, produce, and floral department, the handbook no longer differentiates between male and female employees, line two of all three department list simply state "Trousers or skirts must be of a solid color, preferably a dark color". Yet I say again, it never specified which gender this was acceptable for. However in the spirit of the rest of the handbook, I think we can all safely assume that was a slight oversight on the handbook proof reader.

To make things fair, the company could just mandate that everyone wears trousers. But then again, this area has many Christian denominations where their women are forbidden to wear trousers, likewise they are also forbidden to cut their hair. They could argue (and win in court) that the company can not require them to wear pants due to their religion. Since I don't follow any Abrahamic religions, that argument won't work for me. Hmmm.. I guess it's true that atheist and Pagans really are somewhat disenfranchised after all!

And the end of the day, it isn't worth toasting a job over.

But in all seriousness, I can understand their point. They are after all selling groceries in a very conservative area of the state and nation. If they were to begin allowing their male employees to wear skirts, it would damage their business. That business is what makes my paychecks clear the bank, so I can't knock them for doing what they have to do. Unfortunately, when you are in a private business that caters to the general public in a highly competitive market, you do have to dance to the tune of what's socially acceptable, at least while you're on the clock.

I attempted to start a business once, I was myself. Granted this was before I was wearing skirts, however it was no secret that I was the cooking equipment repairing man-witch. How did that go?

Well, I'm working at a grocery store now, so you tell me!

Feel free to share some of your stories/thoughts on company dress code...

[dillon]

For my organization the clothing requirements are safety oriented and leaves broad discretion to administrators to determine the appropriateness of an employee's daily clothing. When you operate at a professional level, you understand what is and isn't wise to wear in a job with public exposure. That's an envelope I'm not interested in pushing.

[Sinned]

I work in retail and I have a lot of contact with the public. The summary of the dress code in the document we are given just specifies black trousers or knee length skirt with no designation to sex. I have had unofficial discussions with colleagues and I would like to and it may be possible for me to wear a skirt to work but I am reluctant to make the first attempt. I have attended two out of hours meetings in a skirt without any adverse comment. But, AND IT IS A VERY BIG BUT, MOH is thinking of working at the same store as me and if she does get the job then it would be NFC to any thought of skirts at work so I am hanging fire at the moment.

[moonshadow]

Well to be clear, my only issue is the double standard in work places. However, on the other hand, the employer really is over a barrel, they have to maintain a certain image in front of the customer, and also adhere to their employee's religious rights. Let's just call a spade a spade, in modern day western culture, women wearing skirts is normal, and men wearing them isn't. Those who work in the public for private dollars have to do a song and dance.

So I don't fault employer's for requiring a certain dress code, in fact I'll go on to say in my view, when we go work, we enter into a "unspoken agreement of expectations". We are essentially selling them our time. Just as you wouldn't, say hire a lawyer to represent you in court wearing a tutu, no we expect them to look lawyerly. Our employers have the right to dictate what we wear on the clock. We are after all, free to quit at any time. And we can wear anything we want, in addition to be unemployed. It's a take and give....

I do however hope I live long enough to see the day when these gender barriers are torn down, where at least men will be allowed to wear "tasteful" skirts on the job when the opportunity arises.

However even then, there are some jobs where a skirt simply isn't safe. A long flowing a-line skirt around heavy machinery is a recipe for an accident.

But again, I'm not trying to knock employers that don't allow men to wear skirts. I realize they have their reasons, really I'm just shooting the bull and making conversation...

Edit: Corrected a typo

[skirts4me]

I'm an almost retired public servant with a particular role associated with industry, yet I have been able to wear skirts at work, with encouragement from a number of my colleagues, though a couple made it clear they did not approve. Several clients saw me in the office clearly wearing a skirt, and didn't raise any problems - they were far more interested in getting the quality of service I could provide than playing games over what I would wear. I also spent a few years driving a school bus, skirted, with no complaints from parents or staff. One parent, seeing me in a shopping centre in trousers actually commented that she didn't recognise me at first because I wasn't in a skirt. Much depends on where you work, and with whom you have to relate. Some employers are more concerned/paranoid about company image than others are, but I believe few people would go elsewhere just because you wear something different.

[skirtingtheissue]

... One parent, seeing me in a shopping centre in trousers actually commented that she didn't recognise me at first because I wasn't in a skirt....

You know you've made it when that happens! I've had the same comment or similar ("Oh, not in a skirt today?").

----- Henry

[moonshadow]

Saw a young lady today in one of the stores wearing a PURPLE skirt! Awwwwwwe.... not allowed (wrong color)....

We start letting stuff like that slide and Moonshadow might just have to wear one.

But seriously, I was surprised, they are normally pretty strict about things like correct color. Of course, women, as is normally the case in the western world, tend to have a little more flexibility. Although I will admit I've been known to skirt the dress code from time to time.... oops! Unintentional pun! Actually I've never worn a skirt on the clock, I meant skirt as in "work around". The fact is, from time to time I have been known to wear an ordinary t-shirt if I know I'm going to be working in stores that aren't too picky and know me well.

Still an actual skirt might push it....

I've been giving some SERIOUS thought to wearing my fedora hat in the deli's and meat departments for a "head covering" (health code). As I personally CAN'T STAND wearing a ball cap. They make me look so..... "ordinary guy". The fedora has class.

[Caultron]

I wear a skirt to work every day.

Of course, it helps that I telework 100% and my boss is 400 miles away.

[dillon]

Yep. I was in a Skype conference this morning, wearing a purple Nike golf skirt.

[crfriend]

Saw a young lady today in one of the stores wearing a PURPLE skirt! Awwwwwwe.... not allowed (wrong color)....

We start letting stuff like that slide and Moonshadow might just have to wear one.

Well. unless the colour purple is proscribed by The Authorities it's a great colour. Personally, I love it. My own rig yesterday was a purple dress shirt, black waistcoat, red velvet skirt, black tights, and just for an extra splash of colour a vivid red paisley ascot. (Having recently trimmed my beard (and getting some nice reactions from the women at work for it), some of my front-side is now visible above the neckline of my waistcoats. I've taken to sporting neckwear from time to time just for an extra "pop" of colour.)

But seriously, I was surprised, they are normally pretty strict about things like correct color. Of course, women, as is normally the case in the western world, tend to have a little more flexibility.

In all practical senses, women are above many of the rules that bind men. It's a dirty rotten double-standard, but we're just expected to "man up" and deal up with it. Get used to it as that's not going to change any time soon.

I've been giving some SERIOUS thought to wearing my fedora hat in the deli's and meat departments for a "head covering" (health code). As I personally CAN'T STAND wearing a ball cap. They make me look so..... "ordinary guy". The fedora has class.

Yes, fedoras definitely have class. I may look into getting one as more of my hair disappears with advancing age. However, by most normal rules of etiquette, men are not supposed to wear hats indoors -- "ball-caps" included. Netting can be used if there are actual health concerns, but outright hats violate the age-old rule of "take your hat off when you go inside".

[dillon]

Carl is always more finely feathered than most of us! I have some skirts in purple and also enjoy the color, which is not typical for me to deviate from black, grey, or earth tones. One is an outdoor nylon style by Columbia called a "waterskirt", not sure why. The newest is a set by Nike Golf they call a skort, though the skirt and matching short are separate pieces, not sewn together. Its not especially short-hemmed but still its nice to have a color and fabric matched underlayer, and even tempts activity to allow the short to be seen. Another favorite is a Prana woven cotton skirt, which has a nice faded waif look. Also have a purplish grey floor sweeper which is a bit long and I have to wear it up around my belly, which still feels odd to me. But, yeah, purple is a great skirt color for men like me who don't care for and will never feel comfortable with bright colors.

[moonshadow]

Well. unless the colour purple is proscribed by The Authorities it's a great colour. Personally, I love it. My own rig yesterday was a purple dress shirt, black waistcoat, red velvet skirt, black tights, and just for an extra splash of colour a vivid red paisley ascot. (Having recently trimmed my beard (and getting some nice reactions from the women at work for it), some of my front-side is now visible above the neckline of my waistcoats. I've taken to sporting neckwear from time to time just for an extra "pop" of colour.)

Oh I liked the skirt, in fact I'd like to know where she got it as I'd certainly give it a wear myself. Like you point out, I just don't like the double standard. If a male associate showed up wearing a pair of PURPLE PANTS he'd be sent home! I've also seen female associates wear denim skirts, which is not allowed, per dress code the skirts MUST be either navy blue or khaki colored. I'm just saying, dress code is dress code...

If the dress code is flexible, then that flexibility should apply to everyone.

I'm ashamed to admit, a part of me wanted to say something, but alas, it would have been the result of my envy, and that's not cool. Plus I'd be a blatant hypocrite, as I've been known to bend little rules here and there myself.

Besides she looked good in it, so carry on sister.... if you can get away with it, more power to ya.

I've noticed Walmart seems to have a very relaxed dress code now. I've noticed a lot of their stockers in what appears to be just ordinary street clothes with a name badge. I'd almost bet that a male walmart associate MIGHT just get away with wearing a skirt if he put up a big enough fight and had good public relations backing him, but it'd be a gamble. He might also loose his job too.

On to hats:

Another puzzle I've often wondered about.... why are men expected to remove their hats indoors, while women can keep theirs on? As many church going men know, you want to avoid the pew behind the little old lady who insist on wearing a humongous gawdy hat to church. I've never been much of a hat wearer myself, and when I do, I like them stylish. Not really crazy about ball caps.....

....okay a quick google search on this reveals that this is more a matter of respect. Particularly in churches. I can go along with that. Still.... interesting customs. The custom of removal of a hat in other public areas, or in the presence of a lady seems to have gone away for the most part. Then again, I'm of the opinion that respect is earned not given away and well.... as far as American women go....

....eehh... I better stand down, going to get myself into a nasty rant!

[moonshadow]

Then again, I'm of the opinion that respect is earned not given away and well.... as far as American women go....

Put it to you all this way, when I see a lady, I might just be a gentleman in her presence, but until then, I'm not going to bother.

And in all of my life, I've never seen a lady in person. Lots of women, but never a lady. Not in the good old nited-states of 'Murica.

[crfriend]

If a male associate showed up wearing a pair of PURPLE PANTS he'd be sent home!

Purple trousers attract attention. Trust me. I have a pair of purple palazzos that gather more stares than all my skirts put together.

I've also seen female associates wear denim skirts, which is not allowed, per dress code the skirts MUST be either navy blue or khaki colored. I'm just saying, dress code is dress code...

If the dress code is flexible, then that flexibility should apply to everyone.

In this case, you're not dealing with a "dress code" per se, but rather with a uniform, and those rules are supposed to be absolute and inviolate. The offender should rightfully have been chastised.

A "dress code" is a set of guidelines that set out what's "appropriate" in the business setting at hand, not necessarily hard-and-fast "rules". As per usual, women ignore it and men get hassled for straying over the line. it's not a level playing-field.

Another puzzle I've often wondered about.... why are men expected to remove their hats indoors, while women can keep theirs on? As many church going men know, you want to avoid the pew behind the little old lady who insist on wearing a humongous gawdy hat to church. I've never been much of a hat wearer myself, and when I do, I like them stylish. Not really crazy about ball caps.....

This is largely down to custom and an obsolete notion called "respect". Hat etiquette can be difficult sometimes to understand, and it seems that it's never really been updated to keep in touch with the times, and where it has, it's gotten even more confusing. For instance, does the public area of an indoor mall count as "indoors" or "outdoors" when it comes to hats? (Modern wisdom seems to indicate, "outdoors", so hats are allowed.) I suspect the original rationale for women not having to remove their hats indoors has to do more with the complexity of the things, and the fact that sometimes they're fastened on, rather than anything else. In some situations, and with organisations which are positively anal about uniforms, certain areas may be categorised as "indoors" when they're actually open to the sky; I seem to recall that the Pentagon's central courtyard is deemed "indoors" so hats needn't be worn when transiting between wings whereas they otherwise would have to be. It's all rather peculiar.

Don't get me started regarding ball caps. I could rant about that "style" for days. (Hint: I regard them in the same light as "droopy-drawers" and "hoodies".)

The custom of removal of a hat in other public areas, or in the presence of a lady seems to have gone away for the most part.

See above; rules still exist, but can be rather byzantine. As far as encountering a "lady" once you get west of the Atlantic, forget about it. That's another obsolete concept. So are gentlemen, it seems, for that matter. It's perfectly possible to have one without the other, but why bother.

[moonshadow]

Purple trousers attract attention. Trust me. I have a pair of purple palazzos that gather more stares than all my skirts put together.

Oh I agree, it's just the principle of the matter.

Generally skirts can be more... what's the word... "eclectic?" and not really be a big attention getter, but pants on the other hand.... and it's funny that it doesn't matter the gender that wears them... crazy pants will always be crazy pants!

In this case, you're not dealing with a "dress code" per se, but rather with a uniform, and those rules are supposed to be absolute and inviolate.

I can see the technicality of my statement and concede this debate as you are correct. However on the store level of the company I work for, "dress code", and "uniform" appear to be one and the same for all intents and purposes. Whereas, the associates provide their own "bottom", however there are very strict guidelines as to whats allowed. If I'm not mistaken, even skirts are to be at least to the calf. Allowable colors are very plainly spelled out, and the "top" (shirt) is generally provided by the company free of charge. (It's a polo or smock). The women are offered an additional company issued choice that tends to highlight their hourglass shape.... I have to admit, it looks good on them.

The "dress code" you rightly describe would be more for our corporate employees, as in those who work in the corporate office, however store management and some department heads also adhere to what I guess would be considered "dress code", over "uniform".

And again, I want to point out, that store level dress code, or uniform (what have you) is not something I take issue with. I can understand, and respect the fact that as a business that services the public in a very open way, we are expected to project an image while on the job. Then again, the irony of what I just said was that if we had a fair and just society in regards to what's acceptable wear, we wouldn't even have to point out that "skirts are just for women" in our company hand book because it would be acceptable in the public eye to see a man in a skirt. A good example of this is long hair on men. 50 years ago, I'd say this would be STRICTLY forbidden for men, however times, they have changed, now our handbook doesn't forbid it, it only says it must be kept neat and clean. In fact, I've actually seen management with shoulder length hair. As I grow mine out, some non-management and even a few management (but not my boss) "jokingly" say I'm due for a haircut myself. But the best I'll do is put it in a pony tail when it gets long enough. I won't cut it unless I want to, or they make all men cut their hair, and threaten my job if I don't. Really... I don't expect a problem here.

Retail, and grocery are very competitive markets, and our stores are in well defined conservative areas where our customers expect to see a certain image projected in store employees. The classic image of the teenage bagger cheerfully handing a brown paper bag (yes we still use those, but only by request) with the veggies and bread neatly sticking out of the top, while a prim, but cherry clerk takes your money.

I know it sounds silly, but this is the stuff that keeps these particular customers coming back, and out of walmarts, and thus keeps my paychecks coming in every Thursday, so by all means.... carry on. I'm fine to restrict my skirts to my off time.... it's not to much to ask.

But as I said earlier in this thread, I hope I live to see the day when these gender stereotypes are finally broken down.

(Hint: I regard them in the same light as "droopy-drawers" and "hoodies".)

Ahhhh.... now I do like my hoodie. I guess it's because I'm technically still considered a "young adult" (although I'm getting on the upper border of such) Still young at heart no less. Our company does issue company hoodies, and I have one, but it's a pull over. I prefer a zip-up hoodie. I purchased a hoodie at walmart that I really like (I'm photographed in it on my thread "out and about"). It's interesting that my uniform is company issued from the shirt to the pants, and this year they have added a jacket. But the thing is horribly stiff and starchy and very cumbersome to wear. So I've been wearing my regular "street" (non company issue) hoodie to work. I wore it last week when I accidentally happened upon our director (my bosses boss). He never said a word, even shot the bull with me for a few minutes.

.... success...