What do we want out of SkirtCafe?

[AMM]

I'm saddened to see that RyeOfTheDead has left us. Like some others before him, he has chosen to memorialize his departure by removing many of his postings, so it's hard to figure out exactly what it was that bothered him, beyond the fact that a thread that he was interested in got locked. I can only figure that he became convinced that, whatever he was looking for here, he wasn't going to get it.

This led me to wonder:

What exactly to the folks who come to SkirtCafe -- and post here -- hope or expect to get out of it? And to what extent do we find it?

It's clearly not the same thing we get out of wearing skirts -- SkirtCafe isn't the same as men wearing skirts, or even primarily devoted to showing men in skirts. It's mainly people talking about men in skirts, and/or men who like to wear skirts (and the women who love them ) talking about whatever interests them.

And the flip side: what do folks hope not to find here, what tends to make us feel it's not worth it? And to what extent do we run into it?

+ + +

Speaking for myself, I came here for:

1. Support for my skirt-wearing.
This was mostly in the beginning. Now, having worn skirts for 2-3 years and gotten the courage up to wear skirts pretty much everywhere except around my relatives and at work, I don't feel I need the sort of support you can get from a virtual community.

2. Opportunities to share and talk about feelings about skirt-wearing.
I would say I have not gotten any of this here. The community here is pretty much like any other collection of males: "feelings" is the real F-word taboo. When this F-word is uttered, some folks reach for their guns, the rest dive under the tables.

3. Discussion of various kinds of skirts and MUGs that I might like to wear.
I've gotten very little of this here. I think it's mainly because my tastes seem to be so different from anybody else's. Most of the stuff I see here -- and that gets all the positive comments -- I don't find any more interesting than what's in Sears' men's deparment. As for what I like (and post), I have the distinct impression that most of the guys here would rather die and go to Hell than wear the sort of stuff I post.

4. Discussion of technical details of skirt- and MUG-wearing.
I've gotten some of this. A little bit of discussion of sewing, but it seems like few people here sew. A little bit of discussion of knee socks, tights.

I'm reminded of a comment by Richard Feynmann that more or less went: "We can't have conversations about questions we have the answers to, because once we have the answer, what's to talk about? We can only have conversations about questions that no one has the answers to."


I've found that most of the discussions I end up participating in aren't about skirts at all or have at most a peripheral connection to skirts.


What have I hoped not to see?

Mostly, guys playing the usual male dominance games, the posturing, the verbal squabbles that seem to fill most of the Internet, and male defensiveness.

SkirtCafe has been pretty good about avoiding verbal squabbles (by at times heavy-handed moderation), and I haven't seen much in the way of dominance games. But defensiveness and mild (and at times, not-so-mild) posturing crop up on a regular basis.

[sapphire]

AMM,
Thanks for the post.

I joined Skirt Cafe because:

1. I wanted to support Carl in his desire to wear skirts.

2. I wanted to reassure those just getting into skirting that a woman could be supportive

3. I wanted to share my own experiences as a means of support and a way to help men figure out which styles/cuts/etc would work best on their bodies.

[Sarongman]

I am replying to this thread with a degree of trepidation as, it seems to me that, this thread could create a degree of angst. I am saddened by departures, though people have the right to their own views, they should give credence to the (often onerous) duties of the moderators.

1; AMM, first point was mutual support and, I am in agreement that, once the confidence is strong, we don't need any more of this.

2; Feelings, I suppose this comes down to the typical male inability to open up to their feelings. Though defensiveness should not come into any of this. i suppose I fall into the "dive under table" variety of men here.

3; Discussion of various tastes in MUGs. AMM, while I think you carry off what you like to wear very well, I can not think of what to say, as I am into a "men's dep't at Sears" style skirt--possibly as being less confronting to the natives. Not meant as being a corrosive statement, just that I am more of a wimp

4; Technical details--I am a dunce with a needle and thread, even if I did get to teach my Cub Scouts to sew on a button! I have the greatest admiration for those who can sew something with a professional look. As to the rest, quite right! If it is something that has been rehashed over and over again I, for one, cannot gather any enthusiasm for the subject.

If one looks into my posts here, it will be seen that I have mostly replied to peripheral subjects or those not at all skirt related. As to on site behaviour,we are, largely, not only more civilised than many in our disagreements but, I believe us to be in the main, quite tolerant. Posturing seen here is, if anything, a part of the human condition and, to finish, I come here for the pleasant company

[Milfmog]

Like some others before him, he has chosen to memorialize his departure by removing many of his postings

Several other forums to which I belong do not permit posts to be edited or deleted once they pass a predefined age. Typically this is 24 hours, sometimes it is a week. Some do not allow the editing or deletion of posts that have had replies. If the moderators are concerned by this post deletion behaviour one of the above strategies may be a solution.

In response to your points:

1. Support for my skirt-wearing.
I did not come here to find support. I simply wanted to learn more about the issues, trials and tribulations. The café has met this need for me and continues to do so.

2. Opportunities to share and talk about feelings about skirt-wearing.
This is valuable and on occasion folks have shared their feelings on a number of subjects. Personally speaking, I am very bad at understanding my own feelings and hence pretty useless at articulating them or helping and supporting others. That may simply be male conditioning and overtime I may get better at it but it was never a significant reason for my reading or posting here.

3. Discussion of various kinds of skirts and MUGs that I might like to wear.
This has been valuable for me, but then I don't go for the more flamboyant styles that some here, yourself included, carry off so well. Clothes reflect personalities and I'm fr more comfortable in the kitchen at parties than out in the thick of the action. That's who I am and my clothing choices largely reflect that. I'd love to feel able to wear some of the brighter clothes and more exotic fabrics but my personality does not fit.

4. Discussion of technical details of skirt- and MUG-wearing.
I've never regarded wearing clothing as a technical issue. As for sewing I suspect that the lack of activity in that area is simply a reflection of the small number of people who make their own clothes these days. I have felt inspired to try a few times, but the initial cost of a sewing machine and the time required to master its' use have put me off. Perhaps one day I will have the time for a new hobby and may give sewing a try, in the meantime I enjoy learning a little and gaining an appreciation of how things work from what others post.

Richard Feynmann's reported comment is simply a trueism.

One thing that has been an unexpected bonus of being here is that all the folks who contribute tend to be people who think for themselves, who question the accepted norms. This openness to ideas, plus the wide range of backgrounds and interests of participants here has often provided me with little dawnings of understanding and an alternative view on the subject under discussion (often nothing to do with skirts) that I had not anticipated. I always enjoy learning and keep returning to this board because of these little snippets.

What have I hoped not to see?

I don't have any interest in the concept of dressing up to be seen as or mistaken for a female. I am quite certain in my own mind that "Guys will be gals" style role playing or dressing will only serve to confuse the public about my reasons for wearing a skirt. Hence I am glad that we do not see this here. I do not care how far others want to go in feminising their wardrobes, indeed I enjoy reading about others experiences, but I absolutely support the cafés stance on gender honesty, without that I would have ceased posting and reading here long ago.

Closely related to the above, I did not want to read any discussion about gender identity. However I have learned an immense amount from the occasional discussions on the subject and from contributions by folk who have wrestled with this themselves, wsmac and PeterV come to mind in this context and I am glad that the moderators have permitted those discussions to take place - understanding sometimes comes from unexpected places.

Finally I'd like to thank Bob and the moderators for keeping this forum open, friendly, welcoming and true to its' core mission. I know the web is a better "place" for it.

Have fun,


Ian.

[Since1982]

This might be my last post here for a while but it gives me an "on thread" opportunity to mention why I'll just be lurking and not posting. It's been brought to my attention that I "post too much" here and my posts are not good for the general health of the site. I always thought that because I'm retired and have a lot of time on my hands, I could be helpful to other men interested in doing what I'm doing, that is, wearing skirts etc. all the time instead of trousers.

I've always tried to input solid information to any site I've responded to. If this was a chat room (which it isn't) we'd probably have an easier ability to interact and have actual "conversations". Because it's not, some times things said "after the fact" get misunderstood and replied to out of context. I apologise for any time that's happened with something I said. So I won't be posting unless it's a new thread I started or a direct answer to a question from another poster. I'll try to answer any question like that in a PM so it doesn't bother other folks' interactions. Thanks for being my friends.

[crfriend]

Whilst the topic at hand is "What do we want out of SkirtCafe?" all I can do is comment along the lines of what I want from SkirtCafe.

SkirtCafe remains a place of interest for me for a number of reasons.

The notion of support for one's fashion choices, as others have pointed out, lessens as one gains confidence and experience with his own style -- but that does not lessen the need that newcomers may have. I feel that it's important for the more "experienced" skirtsmen to bolster the confidence of the man who is making his initial forays into the field, point up potential pitfalls, offer personal experiences, and serve as mentors for the next generation of skirtsmen. Too, if one wants to push his own boundaries even once he's firmly established his own "look" may require some measure of gentle encouragement and support.

Another great piece of joy I take from this community is the well above average intelligence and communication skills expressed by many. Some of the posts here are not just cogent communication but a genuine joy to read. The concentration of good writers and communicators here well exceeds what's on offer in the general physical community.

Beyond the above, I derive much wonder and enjoyment from the different styles that we -- as a community -- have come up with, and what we're comfortable with for "out and about" rigs. Some of the looks are not to my personal taste, some are "special purpose" rigs, and some can be quite "edgy", but they are all representative of the personalities of those who create them and wear them.

Finally, like Ian (Milfmog), I have been exposed to notions and ideas unconnected to skirt-wearing here that have given me enormous joy through their requirement that I engage my brain. This alone would likely keep me coming back, but combined with the factors above, and likely many I have missed in this post, I have a very warm spot in my heart for the SkirtCafe community.

In short, to pilfer from Lance Armstrong, it's way more than just the skirt.

[nicothoe]

Even as members become more confident in wearing skirts, their mere presence in a forum such as this provides support to those just starting on the journey. Often support isn't all about giving advice to others, but just taking the time to listen.

[r.m.anderson]

The movement:

"BRAVEHEARTS - MEN IN SKIRTS (KILTS) "

is not to be taken lightly.

We have come a long way and have an even greater journey yet to come.

Progress will be made when you are asked:

"Were is the kilt or skirt?"

"Kilt/Skirt-On-Frequently-&-More-Often"
rm

[ChrisM]

We get a little closer: A colleague came to me to tell me that his $5Million research grant is starting up, and the sponsor is coming for a visit. So my colleague is lining up a few people he especially wants to introduce the sponsor too and so forth to show our depth of capability, bla bla bla...

So I told him 'yes, I can be available for that meeting, I'm glad to help.' And then I quipped "I guess I'll wear a tie that day."

The good news lies in my colleague's response: "Oh go ahead and wear a skirt."

...

So here is a fella who has just received major research funding from the Pentagon, and he isn't afraid that a Man In A Skirt will scare the client.

"We've come a long way, Baby."


Chris

[Milfmog]

So here is a fella who has just received major research funding from the Pentagon, and he isn't afraid that a Man In A Skirt will scare the client.

That's pretty cool Chris. I always enjoy reading about these little victories, they give me a boost and help to develop my confidence. Thanks for telling us about it.

"We've come a long way, Baby."

That's certainly true for a number of individuals, I'm not convinced that it is true for skirt wearing men in general (yet). However, I am pretty confident that if guys just quietly get on with wearing skirts when it suits them to do so, it really will not take very long for skirts to become as unremarkable as ear studs and long hair are.

The ball is in our court, it is up to us to pick it up and run with it. Let's not be bashful; wear our chosen attire when we want to and who knows where we'll be in a few years time.

Have fun,


Ian.

[crfriend]

"We've come a long way, Baby."

That's certainly true for a number of individuals, I'm not convinced that it is true for skirt wearing men in general (yet). However, I am pretty confident that if guys just quietly get on with wearing skirts when it suits them to do so, it really will not take very long for skirts to become as unremarkable as ear studs and long hair are.

Skirt wearing may never be "for" some segment of the male population -- and that's OK. The key here, as I see it, is to get skirts on guys to the point where the notion is accepted as normal, or at least won't attract ridicule and giggles.

This is where I see SkirtCafe's place -- to inspire men; to show them that it is perfectly possible to wear skirted garments and still be wholly male; to offer support if they need it (or would like it); and to stand out by example and serve as an examplar for the style.

[Jack Williams]

Well, having ventured to read that lot, I can only say Milfmog could not more encapsulate my own position on the subject. I guess we are not to see a burst of male skirt wearing, but that does not mean we don't set an example. I can only say enjoy the personal advantages of skirts and let the populace discover them at their leasure. Jack.