Too Feminine - is there a tipping point ?

[davemcwish]

Being Scottish I'm well used to wearing a kilt but really like the idea of wearing a skirt. I guess my initial assumptions was to find really masculine styles/materials e.g. denim or something that wouldn't be too noticable; possibly this or this.

I do appreciate that we all have different views on style but this post got me thinking how the new acquisition would 'work' for want of a better word. I'm not criticising skirtingtherealissue's choice but part of me thought 'good on you' and the other half thought 'oh no !' as that this would prevoke a very negative reaction if I wore it out.

So I guess my question is whether there is a dividing point for skirts that can/cannot be worn by males in public; if so what ?

davemcwish

[stefan]

Being Scottish I'm well used to wearing a kilt but really like the idea of wearing a skirt. I guess my initial assumptions was to find really masculine styles/materials e.g. denim or something that wouldn't be too noticable; possibly this or this.

I do appreciate that we all have different views on style but this post got me thinking how the new acquisition would 'work' for want of a better word. I'm not criticising skirtingtherealissue's choice but part of me thought 'good on you' and the other half thought 'oh no !' as that this would prevoke a very negative reaction if I wore it out.

So I guess my question is whether there is a dividing point for skirts that can/cannot be worn by males in public; if so what ?

davemcwish

Hi.

I would say that any type of skirt that makes you feel good is going to work for you because you would look confident wearing it. A denim skirt seems to be hardly visible, i.e. not many comments at all. Wearing a ed skirt would be very visible and you would have to be very confident to be able to do that, but I guess some might be able to do that. But be prepared to get some comments if you do that.

/Stefan

[Since1982]

I would say that any type of skirt that makes you feel good is going to work for you because you would look confident wearing it.

That's true to a point. A Male wearing everything feminine except fake B's and B's looks confident wearing the whole 9 yards, but unless I'm very wrong, that's not what sites like this one are about. Some recent members seem to be leaning wayyyy over into that area that if WE espouse it, in my opinion, we can forget all the giant steps we've taken towards manly skirts for manly males.

[stefan]

I would say that any type of skirt that makes you feel good is going to work for you because you would look confident wearing it.

That's true to a point. A Male wearing everything feminine except fake B's and B's looks confident wearing the whole 9 yards, but unless I'm very wrong, that's not what sites like this one are about. Some recent members seem to be leaning wayyyy over into that area that if WE espouse it, in my opinion, we can forget all the giant steps we've taken towards manly skirts for manly males.

Skip, I agree with you. My point is that whatever makes you fell good, and make you feel male, is going to work for you. I think that most people here only wan't to be a man in a skirt. That is certanly valid for me. Even if you might find the odd person that might not fit this description I don't think we should be that picky. I don't think that an odd person or two being bordeline crosdressers are going to destroy what has been achieved on sites likes this.

Having said that we can NOT let theese type of sites being taken over by crossdressers and such. But it might be a fine line that should not be passed.

/Stefan

[crfriend]

I would say that any type of skirt that makes you feel good is going to work for you because you would look confident wearing it. A denim skirt seems to be hardly visible, i.e. not many comments at all. Wearing a ed skirt would be very visible and you would have to be very confident to be able to do that, but I guess some might be able to do that. But be prepared to get some comments if you do that.

Stefan has quite a lot of this right; denim is nearly "invisible" as a fabric because it is so ubiquitous. Nobody is likely to comment on the fact that one is wearing a skirt made of the stuff because everybody just tunes it out.

Red, on the other hand, does stick out but can work very well. Some of the best compliments I've had have been for red-based rigs. True, they're not for the timid, but if you look confident (i.e. "look the part") they can be pulled off to devastating effect. I still fondly recall a staffer at a liquor store in Satellite Beach (Florida/USA) eyeing me in my red waistcoat, a red skirt, and a pale yellow shirt, and then very favourably commenting, "I like your dress!" (It was a mis-read, but there was genuine enthusiasm in her voice; it was a nice boost for me at the time.)

I suspect the "tipping point" has more to do with one's overall presentation than any particular piece of attire. If a guy comes across as confident and secure in himself, he will likely appear so -- and be perceived so -- to random onlookers. Some folks here have "guidelines" of how many pieces of "feminine" artefacts that can be worn at one time; I'll posit that it's the overall impression that one makes that sets the tone to an observer. I was "out and about" this afternoon in a burgundy mini and matching dress shirt and was wearing a bow in my hair -- and there was no possibility of confusing me with much in the line of "feminine". It's all "in the eye of the beholder", and since we control the presentation, we get to control, to a large part, what the beholder "sees". Leverage this.

[Kilted_John]

What Carl said is very true. It's the overall image that someone's projecting that defines the "tipping point"...

In my case, I tend to stick to skirts that have at least an A-line shape, or are pleated, for public consumption. That way, most people will look @ it, if they do, and go on about their business. Back in the early days, I did sometimes wear straight skirts and sometimes tiered skirts. There still wasn't much in the way of double takes, at least, once my confidence was built up, but, in the case of the straight skirts, they didn't really work for me, due to them not providing enough room for movement, and, of course, the bulge. The tiered skirt that I have, I usually wear underneath a pleated skirt, since it's a tie-dye indigo skirt that happens to have some glitter that it either came with originally, or that someone put on it before I got it. I've yet to just wear it alone in a public situation.

Like Carl, I quite frequently use a bow to tie my hair back into a ponytail. I've done this while kilted, skirted, and, also when I've been trousered. Usually gets very little or no comment. Above the waist, I'm always wearing a normal male shirt, since I don't really feel like wearing something that has a large neck opening or that doesn't cover much of my upper torso in public. I wouldn't do that even if I was wearing shorts or jeans, to tell the truth - too much of a gut, firstly, and, secondly, it's just not my style. I also think it helps a bit in making the skirt look more like it belongs on my body, instead of my trying to look like someone I'm not. With respect to legwear, I've done the tights and PH thing a couple times in public, back in the early days. Decided it was an experiment for me, and that I preferred wearing knee-high socks instead, partly because the tights and PH just seemed to be more of a way to wear trousered garments to me, and partly because I like having nothing between my legs and the slip that's under the skirt. Just feels better. And, with opague knee-highs, I think it helps make the skirt look more ordinary, so people think it's just a solid color kilt, even if it's a very lightweight pleated skirt. Sheer knee-highs, maybe not so much, but I've yet to have people give me grief about it, unless you count my family. Shoe-wise, it's whatever I'd normally wear otherwise. I don't have the desire to try the heeled shoes.

Anyway, that's what works for me. Others may want to go farther, and some may want to stay with kilts or other already considered-male skirted garments.

With respect to Utilikilts, I used to wear them frequently, but, discovered that for the cost of one Utilikilt, I can buy a lot of skirts that are just as comfortable, can look a lot like one, if I so choose, and that come in many different fabric choices, in addition to canvas, poly/cotton, or wool (in the case of the Tuxedo UK, which I wouldn't buy, since for the same cost, you can get a nice traditional kilt that'll look better). Yeah, I know I'm supporting offshore labor, instead of supporting a local company, but, there are some design features of the Utilikilt that I don't care for. Namely the fact that it comes only in a wrap version with the snaps that tend to accentuate the manhood, by creating the shape of an arrow pointing downward, and the reverse kinguisse pleating which I didn't care for. Next time I get a casual kilt, I'll be buying one from Freedom Kilts in BC.

-J

[skirtingtherealissue]

Being Scottish I'm well used to wearing a kilt but really like the idea of wearing a skirt. I guess my initial assumptions was to find really masculine styles/materials e.g. denim or something that wouldn't be too noticable; possibly this or this.

I do appreciate that we all have different views on style but this post got me thinking how the new acquisition would 'work' for want of a better word. I'm not criticising skirtingtherealissue's choice but part of me thought 'good on you' and the other half thought 'oh no !' as that this would prevoke a very negative reaction if I wore it out.

So I guess my question is whether there is a dividing point for skirts that can/cannot be worn by males in public; if so what ?

davemcwish

I edited the post to which you referred above to remove the picture and description of the overall presentation as reading the first few responses here I felt it had been misinterpreted. Fortunately, I couldn't write this 'til now (I was on a mobile browser, rather than PC) so I've had some time to consider more fully my response. Frankly, I felt the question and responses were pointedly trying to suggest.... I may have read them wrongly as it is very difficult to guage a post without the help afforded by facial expression and vocal tone.

So please picture the following. There are many events to which the dress code for men is "Black Tie" (US = Tuxedo). Some are gatherings of professionals where all of the men will be dressed in their "penguin suits" and the ladies in pretty much whatever they fancy, although usually long gowns. These may be awards or annual dinners in the legal, accounting, medical professions, etc., not showbiz though; i.e. fairly conservative. At such events, I might buck the trend slightly by choosing a black "mandarin" or "Nehru" collared suit with similar shirt, but nothing too avant garde.

Then there are social dinner dance settings where the dress code for men is, again, "Black Tie" and to which the ladies may also opt for cocktail dresses. These events are less formal and allow for one's individualism to be shown (to an extent). So, how to be an individual? Most men will, perhaps, change the colour of their bow ties, some will don the "Nehru" suit described above. Maybe, even, a coloured waistcoat or cummerbund, etc. But, almost without exception, every man in the room will be trousered.

So, I'm thinking about swapping the trousers for a skirt. I have several black skirts of varying lengths and fits, which will work very well with the jacket and chosen shirt and tie option (I changed into one at a wedding - the bride had already said it was ok before the event - and I had favourable responses). Most are straight or pencil, but then I'm quite thin (approx 5ft 9in and 145lbs - I usually choose UK size 10/12 when shopping for skirts). Indeed, I think that this

lbfall2003_41.jpg

would work very well, too. (I like it, even though it is longer than I'd usually consider, but I think it translates well for male consideration partly because of the model's pose here. A different pose might make it look more feminine.) I then thought about working some colour into the overall presentation. Heck, the type of event I'm planning on using it for is where every man should be trying to out peacock the next! Some will be "loud" as in vociferous, some will be brash, neither of which is me; so I need something different to stand out and "quietly" but definitely not subtly display my male confidence. Now, this will definitely get me noticed (I think it would also work in some shades of blue, green or purple):

20090508_007010861203.jpg

So, is this "too feminine"? For some here, definitely. But, in the above context? Each to their own, but I'd posit that it will not be presenting as cross-dressing any more than any other bloke in a skirt would be considered cross-dressing. My neighbour, whilst not worried by me wearing a skirt, calls it cross-dressing, and would say the same about every member here (other than those who only wear kilts). Some of my (so called) friends "don't like what I do" when I wear just a denim skirt. In their minds, all of us are in some way, shape, or form, deviants and, as they cannot separate clothing from sexuality, gay! Don't flame me for that one - I'm just representing their blinkered and myopic views. I know (hope) all of the members here are more enlightened otherwise you wouldn't be here, would you.

Some of my other posts may suggest I'm pushing boundaries. Yes, I am. Yes, I wear high heeled, knee high boots - you can find the posts. You can also look over at http://www.hhplace.org for many other men who wear similar (or possibly more feminine footwear) but always presenting as men (there are some actual cross-dressers on the site, too, but the seedy side of it seems to have been weeded out).

Very occasionally, I wear a fitted blouse. No bows or ruffles, etc. Other than the clear cut of the tailoring, material wise it would be a shirt. And I have only worn it when wearing jeans.

So what defines "too feminine" and "cross-dressing"?

Is it the garment? If so, then (to the vast majority of the "western world") we are all cross dressers. I don't subscribe to this.

Is it the tailoring of the garment? OK, so unless your unbifurcated garments are only kilts, you're a cross-dresser. I don't subscribe to this, either.

Is it the material? Hey, let's all don hair shirts (skirts) to show how manly we are. No thanks!

Is it the length? Again, long flowing skirts may be too feminine, and short skirts, too.

Does age come into the equation. Probably. I suspect that some of the elder members here would not be too happy with some of the styles that younger members choose. But, then, how many 60 year old women would choose clothing from the teen range in their local stores?

How about size? Just because a guy is slim doesn't mean he's feminine or a cross-dresser. Nor does it equate that a larger guy will be manly just because of his size. Cue the Monty Python Lumberjack sketch

So, what is "too feminine"? Well, I'd suggest that it has sweet f.a. to do with the garment (whether it be the tailoring, the material, or the colour) and everything to do with the presentation and demeanour of the individual wearing it. Put on false mammaries to enhance the upper torso, don a wig, and plaster yourself with make-up; heck, that'd do it. Wiggle your butt, and skip along the street; probably, although you'd also, likely, be considered GAY.

But, to walk tall with a purposeful stride holding your head high? I think this will just give the aire that you are a man, regardless of the clothes you wear.

YMMV, but as someone once said to me "Be bold"!

[crfriend]

Of the two styles pictured above, both fairly well scream "feminine".

The upper outfit is clearly designed for a woman as indicated by the cut of the waistcoat; however, swap that for a more classically-tailored one and you could wind up with a decent-looking man's rig. I don't care for the boots, but that's just my own personal taste. I also don't particularly care for the haughty expression on the model. But, I'd wear that skirt in a heartbeat teamed up with my usual accoutrements.

The second one I suspect would look "strange" on a guy because the garment is deliberately constructed and shaped to emphasize a woman's (non-)existent hips. This one would work on the Kate Mosses of the world, but not women with curves. That and the oversized shiny belt with huge buckle makes it look like this is a skirt that Mrs. Santa Claus would wear. I would decline that one.

On "cross dressing": it is beyond time that term was struck from the lexicon; it has no place any longer and is merely (yet another) perjorative applied only to guys. Axiomatically, it is impossible for a woman to cross-dress; why should it be possible for a man to? Why is it that if a man dons a skirt he is somehow "broken" mentally and in need of repair? The notion is rubbish and needs to be expunged. The next tine your neighbour uses the line on you, take a sneering look at his blue jeans and say, "Well, what about you?" you are no more "cross-dressing" than he is.

[skirtingtherealissue]

The upper outfit is clearly designed for a woman as indicated by the cut of the waistcoat; however, swap that for a more classically-tailored one and you could wind up with a decent-looking man's rig.

This was one of the styles davemcwish posted a link to and I like the skirt. The rest can stay with the model.

The second one I suspect would look "strange" on a guy because the garment is deliberately constructed and shaped to emphasize a woman's (non-)existent hips. This one would work on the Kate Mosses of the world, but not women with curves. That and the oversized shiny belt with huge buckle makes it look like this is a skirt that Mrs. Santa Claus would wear. I would decline that one.

"A woman's (non-)existent hips", ah, so a man's shape . Good, 'cos I don't want to bump into anyone wearing the same clothes as me I'd ditch the belt and the top half would be pretty much covered by the tailoring of the jacket, so it is less likely to be noticed but, hey, with that colour it's going to draw attention, regardless. And the idea was for a evening event, not as everyday wear.

On "cross dressing": it is beyond time that term was struck from the lexicon; it has no place any longer and is merely (yet another) perjorative applied only to guys. Axiomatically, it is impossible for a woman to cross-dress; why should it be possible for a man to? Why is it that if a man dons a skirt he is somehow "broken" mentally and in need of repair? The notion is rubbish and needs to be expunged. The next tine your neighbour uses the line on you, take a sneering look at his blue jeans and say, "Well, what about you?" you are no more "cross-dressing" than he is.

I agree completely here. I have told my neighbour that it is no more cross-dressing than her in jeans and trainers (US sneakers). As for my "friends", I don't see them too often and am at the point I can't be bothered with people who judge me by my clothes. If they need my help at some point, I'll be there for them, but I'm not going to be dictated to as to what I can and cannot wear; just the same as they would tell me to go forth and multiply if I tried to dictate their clothing choices.

The point I was trying to convey was that if we, as members of the forum, start to ostracise members for experimenting with new garments, and they are all relatively new, I suspect, to the vast majority of us, then it is possible that stealth readers will not come forth, unless they fit the "alpha male, manly man" type, to contribute from their experiences, and learn from others experiences, about their style choices as men. Possibly, they'd head for a different forum, catering for a community with which they don't really identify, but that allows for the more avant-garde.

I'd rather ditch the term "feminine" in favour of "flamboyant"; after all, you could deem any man who wears a ruffled shirt with his brightly coloured suit as feminine or effeminate, but you wouldn't necessarily do so, you'd more likely say flamboyant, e.g. Prince (The Artist formerly known as). You may describe them as effeminate from the way they walk and talk, though, and this could equally apply to any man in just jeans and a t-shirt. So, surely, if there are some more flamboyant characters here, then it means that the more ordinary will look, er, more ordinary to the general populace? I'm not suggesting that everyone should try every style, but the more common place it is that men are seen wearing skirts, of all varieties, as men, then the better for everyone. Maybe then we can escape the whole notion that the garment is unusual and start to critique the whole presentation and style of the individual.

[FloralSkirt]

Ok, so I wear my utilikilt (denim with No tartan, so it looks like a skirt) with shaved legs, pedicured tootsies with light colored peachy pink nail polish on my toe nails. ALso throw in 1 diamond stud in each ear! ( on vacation, I also carried a shouldler bag that looked like a purse. Or it did look like a purse given all of the above!)

Too much?

[AMM]

On "cross dressing": it is beyond time that term was struck from the lexicon; it has no place any longer and is merely (yet another) perjorative applied only to guys. Axiomatically, it is impossible for a woman to cross-dress;

I disagree on both counts.

Crossdressing is a very useful term to refer men who not only dress in "women's" clothes, but make other efforts to pass as women, including wigs, makeup, fake body parts, and changing how they hold themselves, how they move, and how they speak. This is what men who call themselves "crossdressers" do and this is what the majority of men who dress up in "female" outfits aspire to.

The fact that some people use it to put down people who aren't really crossdressers, but are just wearing something that looks different doesn't make it any less useful, any more than the word "gay" is useless because some people nowadays use it as an all-purpose perjorative.

(Apropos of "wearing women's clothes" being different from "passing as a woman", I'm reminded of a picture I saw in a National Geographic of a man wearing a tutu and leotard, standing in a boat in the Sydney (Aus.) harbor and drinking a beer. It was apparently some sort of annual day when people do weird and silly things. Anyway, although he was dressed oddly, there was no question that he was a man.)

As for the "impossibility" of women cross-dressing -- there are F-to-M crossdressers, by which I mean women who attempt to pass as men, for a variety of reasons. (There are also F-to-M transsexuals, and also "drag kings.") They are not the same as women who may wear some articles of "men's" clothing, or women who have a "butch" style. You don't hear about them very much for the same reason you don't hear about lesbians as much -- because our sexist society doesn't think that women and feminine things are all that worth paying attention to except to the extent that they cater to (or refuse to cater to) men. Gender-variant men are threatening, gender-variant women are just kinky.

[crfriend]

Crossdressing is a very useful term to refer men who not only dress in "women's" clothes, but make other efforts to pass as women, including wigs, makeup, fake body parts, and changing how they hold themselves, how they move, and how they speak. This is what men who call themselves "crossdressers" do and this is what the majority of men who dress up in "female" outfits aspire to.

With all due respect, I must disagree on that count. In popular usage, "crossdressing" is applied vastly more broadly than to those who would wish to "pass" (or role-play). If a proper clinical term was coined that properly delineated that desire to "pass" or role-play, I'd embrace it; the current terminology is too broad and is too easily misused.

The fact that some people use it to put down people who aren't really crossdressers, but are just wearing something that looks different doesn't make it any less useful, any more than the word "gay" is useless because some people nowadays use it as an all-purpose perjorative.

That's true enough, but it remains that there's a huge dissymmetry in how the term is used, and that's what I'm railling against.

As for the "impossibility" of women cross-dressing -- there are F-to-M crossdressers, by which I mean women who attempt to pass as men, for a variety of reasons. (There are also F-to-M transsexuals, and also "drag kings.")

No offence meant, but I'd be rather intrigued as to how prevalent such characters are in the general populace. As far as "drag kings" go, I'll have to state that I've never even heard the term before.

Gender-variant men are threatening, gender-variant women are just kinky.

That notion, too, needs changing. It's time to level the playing field.

[skirtingtherealissue]

OK, first up, I've been re-reading this thread and may have misconstrued the underlying question at the outset. Possibly, I also over-reacted to one of the responses. Friday was not a good day for me and it may have spilled over into my posts.

Anyway, the question of "Too feminine - is there a tipping point?" is a very good point. I hope my reaction to the question will not deter a new member from making active contributions.

As regards the term "cross-dressing" I believe it is the same as "transvestite" and, as AMM suggests, is valid for those men (and women) who are dressing and presenting as members of the opposite sex, although I suspect that the female to male sector is most probably populated by F to M transexuals, rather than "cross-dressers". Unfortunately for us, all too often, the terms are also used by the general populace in reference to any man wearing garments more traditionally marketed to women. Neither term has anything to do with men (or women) exercising alternative male (or female) fashion choices and I would rather they disappear or, at the very least, are acknowledged as referring to a more confined section of society.

I'm now going to lie down in a darkened room.

[Brad]

The confidence of the wearer is more important than what is being worn. I wear skirts, high heels, and pantyhose but I am always a man and portray myself as one. There is never any gender confusion with me. Most people are comfortable with knowing one's gender regardless of appearance. Michael Jackson may have been perceived as a freak but we know he was a man. People get turned-off by a "gender-f--k" where they feel that a trick has been played on them.

As others have said, denim is nearly invisible and is a good fabric choice for pushing the limits. If people expect a man to be wearing shorts, they may not notice that it is actually a skirt.

Don't be "in your face" with the public either- you will be confronted by some and be prepared to explain that you are a man, you use the men's room, and you are involved with women (if you are).

[Since1982]

I've been told in here in the past that all my ideas about who's a crossdresser, who's a transvestite, who's a drag queen and who's a transsexual are wrong and I don't know what I'm talking about. Maybe that's true, it still doesn't change the fact that when I was 16, was able to drive my first car over to Fort Lauderdale public beach I met a lot of "dressed" men who told me that crossdressers were men who part time role played at being womanly. Transvestites were men who role played the woman's role full time but stayed physical men with no plans of surgical changes. Drag Queens were gay men who role played a far overdone female persona with gobs of makeup, 3 inch nails, huge wigs and skintight gowns in all kinds of garish colors. On the other hand they told me transsexuals were men or women that had the surgery to become the other sex physically. Please correct me if this is somehow wrong in these days. Remember, when I was 16 it was 1957.