Women wearing pants!

Discussion of fashion elements and looks that are traditionally considered somewhat "femme" but are presented in a masculine context. This is NOT about transvestism or crossdressing.
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DALederle
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Women wearing pants!

Post by DALederle »

I have been doing research into the subject of women warriors in history.
This is not a search for "Xena" but for actual women who took up arms and fought like men. It's for a novel I'm into rewrites on about a young women turned female warrior in spite of herself. Set in an era about like the middle ages but on another planet, etc.
During the research I came acorss something interesting.
There are many case of women who dressed up like men and joined armies and fought like men. Not unlike the American West's legend of Claminity Jane.
In each case the women impersonated a man in order to go un-noticed. China's famous Mulan as but one example. But these were only a few cases. Even if you extrapolate that there probably ten cases that went un-noticed for each one known, you don't get very many women dressed up like men going to war.
There were far more women, notably of the noble classes, who didn't pretend to be men but were simply women fighting beside men. Duchesses and princesses and baronesses who lead men into battle and defend their homes and castle and countries. Yet these women who fought as women don't get nearly as much notice as the women who disguise themselves as men.
It makes me wonder about where the idea of women dressing in male clothing came from?
The handful of stories of women disguised as men, which novelists and movies gloomed onto and promoted?
Is the Women's Lib concept that they have to imitate males valid?
Where it all becomes different is that our culture treats women trying to be like men as something serious and proper. But men trying to be like women become a joke, at best, or are seen as something pathetic people living troubled lives.
Women as men we applaud for their noble efforts.
Men as women are scorned!
One more case of a double standard!
We simple need more positive images of men in skirts that aren't the butt of jokes!
Dennis A. Lederle
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AMM
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Re: Women wearing pants!

Post by AMM »

DALederle wrote:We simple need more positive images of men in skirts that aren't the butt of jokes!
So provide them.
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Re: Women wearing pants!

Post by crfriend »

AMM wrote:
DALederle wrote:We simple need more positive images of men in skirts that aren't the butt of jokes!
So provide them.
Indeed, Dennis! But do have the guts to provide an example first-hand, rather than pointing to obscure and frequently comical images on the Internet. Get out there yourself and set an example as many of us do.

Sitting in the isolation of one's home whining about the issue is not going to bring about change -- one actually needs to get out there and do it to make change happen -- and the more women we get talking about how good guys can look in skirts -- and how much they appreciate seeing them -- can only be positive (at least "for the cause").
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Re: Women wearing pants!

Post by DALederle »

As have doing positive things!
I have worn skirts to:
Jury Duty! The judge and the baliffs did not say a thing!
The hospital for various medical tests! Not one word spoken to me!
Blockbuster Video! No comments!
Walmart! Ditto!
My doctor's offices! Ditto! Except fo one doctor who said I could wear anything as long as I clothed my nakedness until I got into the exam room.
Renaisance Fairs! Who would notice there!
Shopping at our local mall! Compared to the "goths" I was normal!
Celtic Fests! Who would notice or care there too!
I was down with pneumonia the day of the Million Skirted Man March or I wold have been there too.
That's about as much positive things as any other man who wears skirts.
My post here is about history. It's about exploring where ideas and concepts came form so we can learn something about our present.
And people today seem to have lost much of our historic perspective. Talk to any teenage about history!
I have on a number of occaions and it's like going way over their heads.
It is the perceived images that have been presented to all of us over the years that forms our oppinions. Helped along by views that are skewed for the personal interests of those expressing the views. Constant images of it being okay for women to wear what they want, which has developed during the laast 60 years of our history. Followed by constant negative images of men. Not just men in skirts. I personally beleive that men as a gender are getting more and more negative images thrown at us, which defines how the world see us.
We need more positive images of men! Men as fathers! Husbands! Leaders!
Yes, we need more positive images of men in skirts,
My problem is that so far, I'm the only one I've ever seen, out in public wearing a skirt.
Where are the other men I read about of various MIS-MIK boards?

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Re: Women wearing pants!

Post by AMM »

1. It would be a lot easier to figure out what you are talking about if you wouldn't throw in a lot of different topics in such a jumbled way. And if you wouldn't make every sentence sound like an accusation (it's not clear of whom.)

2. As far as I can tell, your main point seems to be that you're unhappy that you don't see any other men in skirts.

Obviously, you don't hang out where I live, or where crfriend lives, or in the various places that other SkirtCafe regulars live, or you would have seen us sooner or later. (I notice that you don't say where you live.)

But if you count up the number of active posters, even including the ones that are afraid to wear a skirt outside their house, you won't get to a very large number, compared with the population of just the countries where the posters live, or even just the US or the UK. Even if you throw in the regulars at the kilt groups (and not all of them even want to wear kilts in their daily lives), you won't get very many. So it's hardly surprising that you don't see any men in skirts or even kilts at your local mall or courthouse or doctor's office.

3. Actually, if I read you correctly, you do see men in kilts and skirts, just walking around, if you go to the right places. But you seem to say that that doesn't count.

4. You seem to be upset about the "negative images" of men. Well, welcome to the same Hell that gays, women, "Asians", black people, Hispanics, long-hairs, immigrants, people on welfare or SSI, etc., have been living in for decades, if not centuries. Want something to change? Do what they do: organize, work hard, and be patient. Oh, and look for allies in other categories -- and try not to alienate them.
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Re: Women wearing pants!

Post by sapphire »

Yet these women who fought as women don't get nearly as much notice as the women who disguise themselves as men.
Try taking that message to the women who serve in the Armed Forces
It makes me wonder about where the idea of women dressing in male clothing came from?
That should be obvious. Women disguised themselves as men to gain opportunites that would be denied them because of their sex. Fighting is one example, but access to education and commerce were other reasons. Yes, there are examples of women who excelled in those fields, but they were rare.
We simple need more positive images of men in skirts that aren't the butt of jokes
Agamemnon
Jesus of Nazareth
Gaius Julius Caesar
Knights Templar
College and University Presidents
Male Supreme Court Justices
People of the South Pacific Islands
Some African traditional dress
I have been doing research
Not of scholarly quality, if this is the example is representative.
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Re: Women wearing pants!

Post by r1g0r »

this may be a bit of a tangent to the original topic, but it's always been interesting (to me at least) that one of the crimes joan d'arc was convicted of and burned for was dressing as a man!

she was encouraged and supported by the french monarchy to join and lead the french army in battle, and the only garb suitable for battle was male armor and clothing.

unfortunately, modern theories indicate joan may have been male, but with undescended penis and testicles. this syndrome has produced multiple examples of "women" with religious visions/delusions/whathaveyou.

and mila jovovich was so perfect to play her :)
you know... george orwell warned us!
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Re: Women wearing pants!

Post by crfriend »

DALederle wrote:My post here is about history. It's about exploring where ideas and concepts came form so we can learn something about our present.
Sadly, that's not the way it came across, especially given the context of several other posts in the past. This one comes across as a desire to return to a certain viewpoint of history; an idealised (idolised) history. Bear in mind that, as AMM skillfully pointed up, women in most cases amounted to little more than chattel and equality of the sexes was but a distant dream -- little more than a glimmer on the horizon. I do not want to return to those days, and because of that, I tend to reject a lot of the symbolism; unfortunately, it's precisely that symbolism that you seem to idolise.

Face it -- we cannot change history, nor can we, as a society, revert to such a past state no matter how hard certain groups try to make it so. We can, however, influence the future, and possibly change it in ways that might be beneficial to getting skirted rigs accepted universally on men in Western Culture; that is what we should be striving for -- not moaning about what (a possibly fallacious) history offers.
And people today seem to have lost much of our historic perspective. Talk to any teenage about history!
I have on a number of occaions and it's like going way over their heads.
The "younger generations" are not taught history in ways that they can "connect with"; it's still rote memorisation and regurgitation of factoids on standardised tests. That's a perfect way to completely alienate anybody from anything. So it's precisely no wonder that "youngsters" (at least in the US, and that's the millieu of which the OP was speaking of) are not enamoured of the subject!
Yes, we need more positive images of men in skirts,
Take a look at some of the historical photographs of the Highland regiments in the First World War -- "The War To End All Wars" -- charging into battle (and likely machine-gun fire) while wearing kilts.
My problem is that so far, I'm the only one I've ever seen, out in public wearing a skirt.
Where are the other men I read about of various MIS-MIK boards?
I've mentioned this before, aside from an arranged meet with another chap on this forum, I have seen precisely one other man in a skirt -- and that was better than a decade ago! The point is that there are men in the world who wear skirts on a frequent basis; they're just not common. I'm rather surprised that you hadn't seen other guys in non-trousered rigs at some of the venues mentioned; Rennaissance Faires, I'd suspect would be a rich environment for sightings because robes are commonly worn by men (and women) in that time-frame.
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Re: Women wearing pants!

Post by Since1982 »

As I've seen it, today's younger generation is far more lenient when it comes to "different" types of fashion than they're used to. Only children of hard core "haters" seem to be non-accepting of men in skirted garments. Most modern kids seem to look on it as just a new fad and most have tried it in one way or another. The ONLY kids I've run into that were adamantly against anything unbifurcated on men were all females. I wish I could understand that outlook, they don't want to wear skirts but they don't want us to wear them either????? It's ONLY a piece of cloth used to cover private areas, get over it. We're NOT :alien: 's.
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