Will skirts survive!

[DALederle]

Wearing skirts, wether by men or women have been on a decline in the last 60 years. And the decline has increased in the last ten years dramatically.
When I first posted on the internet, 10 years ago, when I discovered the MIS-MIK web sites women were still wearing skirts and dresses to work, if they worked in an office. Now, business casual, meaning slacks and pants, have virtually taken over. This last place to see women wearing skirted garments as their daily wear has gone. It is harder and harder to find anyone wearing a skirt anytime.
We are closing in on two genders. Men and Mini-men. Almost as if women and feminity are disappearing before our eyes.
Not are women trying more and more to look like men but they are trying harder and harder to be like men. As if being manly is something magical that will gain them great rewards.
I feel that without some distinction between genders our cultures is losing something very important. Something that we don't, in our modern culture even recognize or think we need.
The trouble is I can't define exactly what we are losing or why we need it!
Which leaves me dangling in the wind trying to shout down a rain barrel. It is for nought!
THe best I can say is that being a mommy has been a vital part of our culture, world wide, for 180,000 years. Suddenly it's no longer important and because of that, women have no real role models anymore for how they act.
What lies ahead. The PC (politcal correctness) has already undermined our morality and ethics. What's next?

As always, it's just my opinnion and doesn't mean squat!


Dennis A. Lederle

[ChrisM]

As I wait for my bus to work each morning, I find myself watching the young women bicycling to work. (I would no doubt watch the ones driving to work too, but they are hidden in their cars.)

I am pleased to report that the majority of them wear skirts.

Unique to New Orleans perhaps, but pleasant nevertheless.


Chris

[crfriend]

Wearing skirts, wether by men or women have been on a decline in the last 60 years. And the decline has increased in the last ten years dramatically.

I think it comes and goes in fits and starts, but the overall trend does seem that skirted garments are becoming obsolescent. I find this sad, because not only are skirts wonderfully comfortable garments, they're almost always more flattering to the wearer than trousers.

When I first posted on the internet, 10 years ago, when I discovered the MIS-MIK web sites women were still wearing skirts and dresses to work, if they worked in an office. Now, business casual, meaning slacks and pants, have virtually taken over.

One needs to be careful making comparisons between ten years ago and today. Ten years ago (well, 12, actually) I worked for a place that had a formal dress code: this meant ties on men and either skirts or very-well tailored trousers on women (making skirts and dresses a moderately "popular" choice). Needless to say, this did not sit well with many (myself included) who chafed under the restriction. I'm sure that the women saw it similarly, and to maintain the "standard look" on a woman's part almost always cost more than it did on the man's -- and women made a lot less money than the men, making the whole thing grossly unfair. So I completely sympathise with our sisters in this regard.

We're also seeing the creeping "casualisation" of the culture. Skirts and other "fancy clothes" are increasingly getting relegated to the closet because there's nowhere that the average person (be they male or female) goes in modern society where there's any degree of formality: this makes jeans the de-facto any-time-all-the-time garment because for most folks jeans are "acceptable enough" anywhere. True, there are "highbrow" events like going to a symphony, but a night out at the symphony will set one back a couple hundred bucks once one factors in dinner and transportation -- and back in the 1980s I actually witnessed jeans being worn at such events!

There are times I lament the loss of public formality -- and there are times I'm happy it's happened. But, it's a mixed bag, and I suspect at the end of the day it's more of a downside than an up. That said, for Sunday dinner, I do try to ramp things up a bit, but that usually leaves me looking out of place -- more so than usual, because my normal presentation is moderately formal in public anyway.

We are closing in on two genders. Men and Mini-men. Almost as if women and feminity are disappearing before our eyes.
Not are women trying more and more to look like men but they are trying harder and harder to be like men. As if being manly is something magical that will gain them great rewards.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I detect more than a morsel of misogyny in that commentary. Women have been fighting for years to gain equal status in the workforce -- status which they should rightly have -- and that's been a huge driver. The downside is that the "male approach" (if it jams, force it) is the tactic usually applied, and that may be why women may be increasingly viewed as "ersatz men". The flip on that is that as a herd, men try even harder to be "men", and that causes problems all its own. If we can't solve this problem as a culture, things can only get worse as the spiral tightens.

[Milfmog]

Maybe it is different on the old side of the great puddle, but I see more women in skirts and (especially) dresses now than I have at any time in the past ten years. OK it could be just a passing fashion fad but I don't think so. What seems to be happening is that they go to work in trousers, then on their own time they choose to wear something different. Sound familiar Carl?

Have fun,


Ian.

[Inertia]

It is harder and harder to find anyone wearing a skirt anytime.
We are closing in on two genders. Men and Mini-men. Almost as if women and feminity are disappearing before our eyes.

Not are women trying more and more to look like men but they are trying harder and harder to be like men. As if being manly is something magical that will gain them great rewards.

Two points:

1. Your first four sentences heavily imply that skirt-wearing is for women. I thought the whole purpose of SkirtCafe was to encourage skirt-wearing as a commonplace for men as well as women.

2. Being male means you make more money, even today, than a woman will for a lifetime of the same work; you are a member of the sex that has the majority of political, economic, and commercial power in the world; in some countries, it means you have the right to learn to read, which, if you're female, your male-run government won't permit; you are respected by the other males in charge -- to name but a few of the "magical advantages" of being male. Do you wonder that many women, of equal intelligence and ability, find themselves trying to emulate men in order to gain that "magical advantage" and its very real "great rewards"?

I doubt if skirt-wearing will disappear altogether, any more than kilt-wearing has; any more than differentiation between the sexes will -- though it is my hope that much of the inequality between the sexes will indeed disappear. As for fashion... it's just fashion. It changes. Relax.

Cheers,

Inertia

[AMM]

This question seems to me to be a variant of the perennial SkirtCafe Question/Complaint: Why Aren't Women Wearing Skirts?

I'm working on a FAQ list for Men in Skirts and Kilts, and here is my entry for this question:

F.1: Why don't women wear skirts more?

There are two big problems whenever this is asked at SkirtCafe.

a. This question often turns out to not really be a question, but a thinly disguised complaint, essentially, "I like looking at women in skirts, and they aren't obliging me by wearing them when they go out in public." To see the offensiveness of this, just reverse the gender: "I like looking at men in tuxedos, and they aren't obliging me by wearing them when they go out in public."

b. If you really want to know the answer, why are you asking at a site with an almost entirely male audience? Why not ask one of those women? (Preferrably in a way that suggests that you will actually really listen to what they say.)

Anyway, I have done a little listening, and from what I have heard, here are some of the reasons.

1. Your body feels (and is) a lot more exposed and vulnerable when wearing a skirt or dress than in trousers. (I've noticed this when wearing a skirt.) Women are already conscious of the danger of sexual assault whenever they go out, why would they want to make "access" easier?
Also see: skirt-lifters, up-skirt photographers, etc. (These affect kilt-wearing men, too.)

2. Skirts and dresses require a certain amount of care in how you walk and how you sit if you want to avoid exposing yourself, care which is not necessary if you wear trousers. Also, how do you do things like climb a ladder in a skirt without exposing yourself to the people below?

3. If you're female and getting the men you deal with to focus on your competence rather than your sexual desirability is an issue, you don't want to make your task harder by dressing in a way that emphasizes your femaleness. Among other things, that means: no skirts or dresses.

[crfriend]

Maybe it is different on the old side of the great puddle, but I see more women in skirts and (especially) dresses now than I have at any time in the past ten years.

Well, that's heartening news to be sure! On the "new" side of the puddle, things are a bit more questionable, and the overall "skirt density" does seem to have been dropping despite the occasional bloke taking the mantle up and running with it. (Of course, there also seems to be slightly more acceptance of guys in skirts in the Old World than in the New.)

What seems to be happening is that they go to work in trousers, then on their own time they choose to wear something different. Sound familiar Carl?

Indeed it does!

Personally, I don't believe the skirt will ever fade into complete obsolescence, but may well become a rarity (at least in these parts) just the same way as three-piece suits have for guys. What I want is the option of a four-piece suit that can be worn with either trousers or a skirt!.

Have fun

That's my intent! Life is just too short to do otherwise.

[Kris]

...snip snip snip...

It feels good to blow off steam, doesn't it?

As always, it's just my opinnion and doesn't mean squat!
Dennis A. Lederle

Here! Here! I'll drink to that!

Kris
(Trying not to bite my tongue which is firmly planted in my cheek. )

[Mipi]

We are closing in on two genders. Men and Mini-men. Almost as if women and feminity are disappearing before our eyes.
Not are women trying more and more to look like men but they are trying harder and harder to be like men. As if being manly is something magical that will gain them great rewards.

Dennis A. Lederle

We are all to blame! Women are regarded not equal to men in many situations and cultures. So, that could be a reason.

[Since1982]

Femininity(sp) is on the rise, check out any Drag Queen site. It's just not happening with females. Skirts are getting more popular every day, ask anyone here. Just not getting popular with women. It's a weird thing, women don't want to wear skirts but they also don't want anyone else wearing them. ~~~I can see it now, huge piles of skirts being burned by jackbooted women in tight leather pants~~~(idiotic ramblings again)..Don't ever get old..it's absolutely NO phun!

[DALederle]

Skip:
Years ago, 10 or more, I treid to point out to people on various MIS-MIK boards that there are thousands or millions of men who do want to wear skirts or various skirted garments. But they are all in hiding. They are the "drag queens" or the transvestites or the cross dressers, which are being lumped by our PC government into the heading of trangendered.
Of course the same government probably considers us part of the GLBT (gay,lesbian,bi, trangendered) community, even though MIS-MIK are not. It is two different subject matters.
The numbers are large enough to effect the kind of change we have all sought for years.
The problem being how do we get them to give up their impersonations (most of which don't work) long enough to just wear skirts out in publlic the way the 500,000 women did during WWII.
That would save skirts as garments because men could begin to freely wear them too.
But most people on the MIS-MIK boards jump all over anyone who suggest (or they did to me in the past) we reach out to the TVs and CDs of the world.
Dennis A. Lederle

[crfriend]

Years ago, 10 or more, I treid to point out to people on various MIS-MIK boards that there are thousands or millions of men who do want to wear skirts or various skirted garments. But they are all in hiding. They are the "drag queens" or the transvestites or the cross dressers, which are being lumped by our PC government into the heading of trangendered.

I believe that we are dealing with something new here, and it's very different from the "classical" CD/TV world. Note that part of the driver in "classical CD/TV" is the need to emulate a very specific stereotype of womanhood. Less charitable types might use the term "ape" instead of "emulate", but the notion remains part of the overall behaviour. With "MIS" (Management Information Systems? One needs to be careful with alphabet-soup.) we see men wearing skirts with precisely no intent to emulate a stereotype: their gender identity is preserved in the looks that they pursue. So, to lump both into the same pile is likely misguided.

Of course the same government probably considers us part of the GLBT (gay,lesbian,bi, trangendered) community, even though MIS-MIK are not. It is two different subject matters.
The numbers are large enough to effect the kind of change we have all sought for years.

Are they? I have not seen any "hard data" on the notion, and the sample size here at SkirtCafe is way too small to extrapolate into the population of even a small country. As far as "the governments'" (any of several) view of us is concerned, I sincerely doubt that we are even on the RADAR.

The problem being how do we get them to give up their impersonations (most of which don't work) long enough to just wear skirts out in publlic the way the 500,000 women did during WWII.

This makes the assumption that they want to abandon the "impersonations", and that assumption may well be invalid with the "classical CD/TV" community. Recall that "classical CD/TV" involves much more than simple clothing choices -- it involves taking on an entire (stereotyped) persona; MIS primarily involves the simple swapping of trousers for skirted garments. I don't see much overlap.

Face it: if a man wants to wear a skirt in public, he is legally allowed in most jurisdictions to do so. With that being the case, why go to all the extra effort in a -- usually vain -- attempt to "pass"? It makes little logical sense.

[... M]ost people on the MIS-MIK boards jump all over anyone who suggest (or they did to me in the past) we reach out to the TVs and CDs of the world.

Does the CD/TV community want to be reached out to, or are they happy with things the way they are? Tentative contact certainly cannot hurt, but I suspect the agendas of the two communities are widely divergent, if not polar opposites.

I have a gut feeling that the MIS community may be rather well hated by the classical CD/TV community because it puts a perceived dent in their notions. I cannot prove that, though, mainly because I don't have access to said community; I don't know that I've ever met a member thereof, and that's another difference -- the MIS community doesn't keep their skirt-wearing secret.

[AMM]

Years ago, 10 or more, I treid to point out to people on various MIS-MIK boards that there are thousands or millions of men who do want to wear skirts or various skirted garments. But they are all in hiding. They are the "drag queens" or the transvestites or the cross dressers, which are being lumped by our PC government into the heading of trangendered.
Of course the same government probably considers us part of the GLBT (gay,lesbian,bi, trangendered) community, even though MIS-MIK are not. It is two different subject matters.

And you are "lumping" a lot of groups together, too. For most of these groups, wearing a skirt is only a small part of the story.

First of all, "Drag queens" and transvestites are quite different. The essence of being a drag queen is that you be recognized (at some point) as a man pretending to be a woman. If people don't know you're a man, you've failed in your goal as a drag queen, but succeeded in your goal as a crossdresser.

For another, if you read crossdressing groups, you will see that for most of them, it is not so much about wearing "skirts" as about dressing like a woman or feeling female (possibly only part-time.) Many don't wear skirts at all.

For another, it's not the government who lumps cross-dressers (but not drag queens) into the so-called GLBT community, it's the activists, and they do it not because they think these groups are all alike, but because they face similar problems. What they have in common is that they violate society's norms for gender behavior and expression and get marginalized and attacked (and sometimes killed) for it.

The numbers are large enough to effect the kind of change we have all sought for years.

What change are you talking about, exactly? Don't assume that even all MIS and MIK want the same thing. In particular, skirts are anathema to a lot of MIK. (And don't dare call a kilt a "skirt" at a MIK site!)

The problem being how do we get them to give up their impersonations

Most of them would disagree that what they are doing is "impersonation." Asking them to "give it up" is no different from asking you to give up being a man.

But most people on the MIS-MIK boards jump all over anyone who suggest (or they did to me in the past) we reach out to the TVs and CDs of the world.

That's because most of the people at MIS or MIK boards are squarely in the mainstream of society as far as gender norms go, and are as likely to be accepting of TVs and CDs as your average all-male tailgate party at a football game.

The kilt groups in particular tend to emphasize gender norms even more than society at large, perhaps because they're afraid of being seen as unmasculine for "wearing a skirt."

But you don't have to go to kilt groups. Just look at how often people here at SkirtCafe fight over whether something is too "femme."

[AMM]

I have a gut feeling that the MIS community may be rather well hated by the classical CD/TV community because it puts a perceived dent in their notions.

I occasionally look in at Crossdressers.com on the off-chance that they'll discuss something related to gender identity, and some blogs I look at occasionally mention CD.

I don't think we're hated at all. I don't think that the CD/TV community is aware enough of MIS to hate us, any more than society at large is. Every now and then, someone at CD.com will point to a web page with a guy in a skirt, and the reaction is about 75% going "Ew, gross!" and 25% shoulder-shrugging. My impression of the CD/TV community is that they are a little more conservative about gender norms than society at large, but not hugely so.

Does the CD/TV community want to be reached out to, or are they happy with things the way they are? Tentative contact certainly cannot hurt, but I suspect the agendas of the two communities are widely divergent, if not polar opposites.

The sad thing is that I think that the interests of the MIS, MIK, and CD/TV communities are not that far apart, even if their agendas are different.

In re-reading my posts today, I see that the idea of gender norms keeps cropping up. When you come down to it, all three groups suffer from (and are kept apart by) their own internalized attitude that men are only acceptable as long as they are suitably "masculine."

Most of the guys at the MIK sites feel they have to act super-macho and threaten to beat up anyone who threatens their masculinity by suggesting that what they're wearing is anything so sissy as a "skirt."

The MISers generally insist that, whatever they're wearing, it's really a "masculine" skirt (or pantyhose, or whatever), so they're still being "manly."

And the CD/TV's deal with their "unmasculine" choice of clothing by insisting that they're really women when they're wearing it, so the masculinity of their male persona is never really compromised.

[alexthebird]

]Face it: if a man wants to wear a skirt in public, he is legally allowed in most jurisdictions to do so. With that being the case, why go to all the extra effort in a -- usually vain -- attempt to "pass"? It makes little logical sense.

If all we are considering is fashion choices, you are probably right. Fashion, though, is also part of an expression of who we think we are, and sometimes who we might wish to be. I don't know if I agree that there are millions of men hiding in closets dying to wear skirts but afraid of the community's reaction. I'd be willing to bet though that there are millions of men who are uncomfortable with a purely binary choice of gender - Arnold Schwarzenegger (sp?) on one hand and June Cleaver on the other. I know more than a few TV/TSs who embrace that role because they rejected "traditional" ideas of masculinity and couldn't envision anything else but its polar opposite. The attempt to pass is almost as much an effort to erase their sense of their own masculinity as it is an attempt to appear feminine. And by the way, those aren't the same thing.

I have a gut feeling that the MIS community may be rather well hated by the classical CD/TV community because it puts a perceived dent in their notions. I cannot prove that, though, mainly because I don't have access to said community; I don't know that I've ever met a member thereof, and that's another difference -- the MIS community doesn't keep their skirt-wearing secret.

Is there a MIS community? I'm not aware of one.

I went through a phase when I considered myself transgendered, then moved on to something else. Some of my old friends did disagree violently with me because I completely rejected their chosen reality. Others thought I was providing some new choices. I'd be careful about speculating about what motivates other "communities."

I think everything you're saying is right on the money Carl, but I think that there is much more at play for many people.