From the Atrium = A Set of Rules for Men Skirts-Opinions?

[Uncle Al]

This is copied from The Atrium.

Food for thought

Quote=The Atrium

As promised, "The Rules!!!..."

Posted By: Don
Date: Thursday, 7 August 2008, at 5:40 p.m.

… or perhaps more precisely, the “guidelines”, as the term “rules”
suggest a rigidity that really isn’t there!

This post is something of a milestone for me! Eight years ago, I
submitted my first post, the topic of which was “What, precisely, is
a “men’s skirt”?”. I submitted my thoughts on the parameters that
actually define a men’s skirt! Needless to say, the freestylers
jumped all over me, saying essentially that ANY “parameters” are
unacceptable, and with true fashion freedom, “anything goes”.

I’ve talked to a lot of people, gained a lot of experience over the
years, and I think I’ve made some real progress in defining
the “men’s skirt” notion. One of the things I’ve concluded is
that “fashion freedom” isn’t really absolute; rather, it concerns itself
with MANIPULATING the guidelines and boundaries, just as the
women did with their pants movement! “Anything goes” isn’t fashion
freedom, it’s FASHION ANARCHY, and that ain’t never gonna happen!


Well, OK, so why, then, do we need a set of guidelines? How does
this help the quest for “acceptance”? One of the phenomena that I
have observed is that a lot of people would readily accept the
notion of the men’s skirt on an intellectual level, but have a lot of
trouble getting their head around the concept! “I think the idea is
cool”, the might say, “but how do I know one when I see one?”
Well, here are the parameters; A,B,C, D, and E! Observe, brethren,
that the “guidelines” LEGITIMIZE the men’s skirt, by supplying a
clear set of seeable, touchable parameters that so classifies a skirt!

Thus, I propose the following set of “guidelines” that define the
men’s skirt! Observe that as we get deeper and deeper into the list,
the guidelines become more and more vague! The most obvious
among these are in fact imposed by nature…

1. Mounting Technology:

One thing becomes apparent early on, and that is that a man’s body
is NOT shaped like a woman’s body! Not only does this wreak havoc
on things like hip/waist/length ratios, but mounting systems as well.
Women have those wonderful, curvy, flairing hips that (among other
things) make for a wonderful shelf on which to put a skirt! A man’s
body is shaped like a triangle, broadest at the shoulders and
tapering evenly down to narrowest at the ankles! This means that
he is going to have to use some rather funky contraptions – belts,
suspenders, braces, Etc. - to keep WHATEVER he is wearing – skirt
or otherwise – from falling down! Observe that it is VERY DIFFICULT
to buy a pair of men’s pants that doesn’t have belt loops!

From this, I conclude that ANY skirt that purports to be a men’s
skirt is going to have to accommodate these funky contraptions,
and will CERTAINLY be equipped with belt loops!

This is one of the things that makes the MenInTime skirt
unwearable. The only mounting devices are two small Velcro
patches around the waist. If your waist size doesn’t exactly match
the placement of these patches, the skirt falls off!

2. Access to the Plumbing!

I am never more glad to be male than when attending a theatre at
intermission time. The line of women waiting to use the ladies room
is so long that the women on the tail end are going to miss the
second act! The “men’s room thruput” is MUCH higher! This is at
least partially because the standup urinal is a HIGHLY EFFICENT
device, and EVERY MEN’S garment – skirt or not – is going to have
to be compatible with this device! Observe that virtually EVERY pair
of men’s pants you can buy has a zipper fly! SO SHALL IT BE with
the men’s skirt! A clever tailor may conceal it, but it WILL be there.

This is ANOTHER failing of the MenInTime skirt! I can’t figure out
how to urinate standing up while wearing one!

3. Pockets:

As “personal technology” moves on and on, more and more demand
is put on my pocket space. PDAs, cell phones, iPods, GPS
navigators, calculators and the like are all at least somewhat useful,
put they quickly run me out of pocket space. Pockets are fine for
pants, but I’m told they destroy the graceful hang of the skirt!
Women’s skirts sometimes have pockets, but not often, and they
tend to be of minimum capacity. Use of a handbag, a back pack or a
fanny pack is perfectly acceptable, but each has its own
drawbacks. You’re simply not traveling as lite as you could be
without one!

I have concluded from this that the men’s skirt will have a well
thought-out pocketing system, and I can see several reasonable
approaches:

The first of these would be one that has already been implemented
by MenInTime, i.e. a belt that contains outboard pockets, and looks
a little like Batman’s utility belt! I first pooh-poohed this notion, but
upon further thought, can see some validity in it. There would
remain some issues (such as how do I sit down while wearing a
utility belt full of contraptions), but I think these could be resolved
with some creative thinking.

Another approach would be to include sewn-on “outboard” pockets!
Utilikilts takes this approach. It might trade away the sleekness of
the men’s skirt, but certainly would work!

Finally, there’s the possibility of defining the load around the pocket!
What about a very small pocket – AND A WALLET DESIGNED around
that pocket – that would permit a carefully selected load. A couple
of bills, a couple of credit cards, a couple of credit-card formatted
documents (drivers license, registration, perhaps an insurance card,
Etc.) would make up the load. What about car keys and one’s PDA?
Here would be the rub! Car keys can be put into a credit card
format (I’m not sure of the security implications of this), and a
keyless entry system could be accommodated by the wallet itself
(with lock/unlock/panic buttons, Etc).

But what about that “universal” PDA”? The interfaces are already so
small (and poorly thought out) that us old geezers (with poor
eyesight) already have trouble using them! The interface would be a
real nightmare! Actually, speech might be an answer; No one knows
that everyone else might a Have a vested tinerest! I spent the final
15 years of my professional life designing speech interfaces for this
stuff, and could probably design a nice, comfortable, natural
language interface! Trouble is that this would require FAR MORE
parsing and computational horsepower than might be found in these
tiny packages!

4. Length:

Long skirt? Short skirt? The line gets a little vague here, but I can
certainly tell you what my personal parameters are!

A gal with attractive legs rightfully takes some delight in showing off
her legs! Personally, I have NO INTEREST at ALL in displaying mine! I
am NOT going to shave them, NOT going to debilitate them, and I
am not going to wrap them in hot, sticky pantyhose! Therefore,
most of the pants in my wardrobe – and indeed, pants found on the
racks in any men’s dept -are ankle length pants! It seems to me
that by this logic, most men’s skirts will be ankle length skirts as
well!

What about shorts? Men certainly wear them! Indeed, I spend most
of the summer in “Bermuda length” shorts, but I wouldn’t wear them
to court trying to plead my way out of a traffic ticket, or to any
kind of “dress up” affair! My guess is that the length guidelines that
now apply to men’s pants will apply to his skirts as well!

5. Fabrics, Prints, Colors:

For reasons I don’t completely understand, women’s clothing is
bright colored and reflective of nature (flowery prints, and the like);
men’s clothing, while not necessarily dull, is subdued. They seem to
reflect the colors of the earth – flat browns, tans, greys, blues. I
think it’s an innate preference, and it will carry into the world of
men’s skirts!

Challenging this is a psychology that says “Hey, if we’re gonna do
something different, let’s do something REALLY different!
Loud “Hawaiian” prints are available on a novelty basis, and this too,
will spill over into the world of men’s skirts.

6. The "Femme" Side:

OK, here’s the final “kicker”! We’ve often talked about borrowing
from other cultures, we’ve talked about borrowing from history!
What about “borrowing” from the women? Earrings – which are now
perfectly acceptable for men – are a glaring example of how this
might be possible! There are two femme aspects that I find
entrancing!

What about a belt that is actually a form of jewelry, say a gold
chain? I find this VERY ATTRACTIVE, femme or not!

And what about a hip-high vent or slit? I find a woman skilled at the
art of playing “panty peek-a-boo” to be OUTRAGEOUSLY SEXY! I’m
not sure that the mirror image of this would work, but it’s an
intriguing thought!

OK, Have at it, Guys!!!...

Don
Oakland, NJ
= End Quote


OK folks--Here are a few 'guidelines' suggested on another forum.
Don is a 'down-to-earth' person. Several years ago, he and I had
many a good 'discussion' about skirts, kilts and model trains.
Your thoughts, comments and opinions please!

Uncle Al
Duncanville, TX

[Since1982]

For reasons I don’t completely understand, women’s clothing is
bright colored and reflective of nature (flowery prints, and the like);
men’s clothing, while not necessarily dull, is subdued. They seem to
reflect the colors of the earth – flat browns, tans, greys, blues. I
think it’s an innate preference, and it will carry into the world of
men’s skirts!

Reflect the colors of the earth....no, I don't think so, I think the subdued colors are just a hold over from Victorian days when all men's clothes were black or for the really adventurous, brown. I like colors like light blue, aquamarine, beige, khaki, light blue with multi-colored tropical fishes swimming all over my skirt, if I could buy a pair of trousers that were light blue with tropical fishes swimming, I might go back to sometimes wearing them, I'm a creature that lives on this earth, just because I'm a male human doesn't mean I have to look like a puddle of mud with a face and hands. I like the looks of male BIRDS, never having lived thru a bird victorian age, male birds are colorful and still very masculine. Lets show the world that we can be colorful and still masculine. That's what I'm about!!

[crfriend]

Whilst I agree with much of the basic thrust of Don's theses, especially the one about "Anything goes 'fashion freedom' equating to anarchy" some of his basic guidelines seem to fall down on several counts. What follows is my interpretation of the proposed "guidelines".

First off, guys come in as many different shapes as gals do, and that means that some actually have waists that are narrower than their hips; this gives these lucky chaps a place to "hang" a skirt. For those of us with an abiding love of "brewed beverages" -- and that fact that men are not held to the same "standards of beauty" as women -- all a "well-endowed midriff" means is that some form of ancillary "hold up" technology might be required. The exact form is open to debate; the knee-jerk reaction immediately screams, "BELT", but other options, such as braces, are available -- and some men's trousers are still available with buttons on the inside of the waistband for the attachment of these accessories -- don't discount the option.

Point two is largely moot. Put as delicately as I can state it, it's faster to lift the hem and maintain "drape in the back" than to fiddle with mechanical hardware at the waistline. The "requirement" for a fly on a "man's skirt" is a canard. The only skirts that a deft "lift" is impossible with are hobble skirts or other exceptionally narrow (or short) ones. The "lift" also has the side-effect -- a likely appreciated one -- of keeping the "throughput" of the facilities high.

Pockets are another one I hear time and time again, and I don't think that putting large pockets in (or on) a skirt is necessarily a good idea (it's an invitation to overload). Small ones can be of great utility (large enough for a very thin billfold or a miniscule cell' 'phone) but anything large enough to hold a "typical" wallet is an invitation to stuff something big enough (or heavy enough) to spoil the drape of the skirt. If you just cannot be without you ZZ Top "fat wallet" or your myriad high-tech toys, get a bag; there are plenty of "manly" ones out there, and as we've discussed before, blokes can carry bags without issue in most places.

The arguments on length, fabric, and colouration should be left to the whims and tastes of the chap wearing the garment. I routinely wear skirts in colours that I would never wear in trousers -- and this is a good thing. Let's not make the same mistake we've been compelled to make for the past hundred years (with a brief respite in the 1970s). Bright colours work. Make no bones about it. Yes, they will draw attention to the wearer, but if that's the wearer's intent, why stifle that by demanding drab colours? It doesn't make much sense, does it? Note that properly carrying the look off in a believeable way is the responsibility of the wearer -- this is where full "fashion freedom" needs to be moderated so the wearer does not unintentionally make himself look absurd.

As far as the "femme side" goes, Don makes some good observations. Whilst I would certainly not play "panty peek-a-boo" with one of my skirts, I might well consider a sash instead of a belt. This facet is limited, again, to the tastes of the individual and how "far" he's willing to take it. I believe it's possible to take it too far (i.e. to the point where confusion is caused to the casual observer), but I'll not take that option from someone who wants to jazz things up a bit.

My only plea in this would be that the practitioner make his skirt believeable: make it something that observers will take one look at and go, "WOW! That looks GOOD!". It all comes down to the message we want to send about ourselves, and how we want the world to interpret us on an initial visual encounter. Choose wisely.

[r1g0r]

crfriend (carl, right?)...

your comments are right on the money.

if we limit ourselves, then we will impose those same limits on others. and vice-versa.

if i tell you what does/doesn't look good on you, then you have the right to try and dictate to me.

i wear ALL sorts of kilts/skirts/dresses/etc. i dare anybody to even try to tell me what i can and cannot wear. the last person to piss me off to my face ended up looking like he'd been fed to a woodchipper.

my clothing (as long as it is decent) is my business ONLY.

but then, i've a REAL bad attitude problem.

[Peter v]

Very interesting.
* And I do agree with Crfriend's sober minded vieuw.

"I have jotted some things down quickly, in reaction to the initial posting. And is of course open to criticism.

* The rule is there are no real rules. The rule is respect, the rule is that we men can finally try to show ourselves as we really are, not being held back by pants convention. One can only assume that IF, IF the majority of men who wish to wear skirts wish out of free choice, any "manly" skirting outfit, then that will be the general free floating norm, or what will be mostly seen. That will fluctuate with active participation.
* As the choices and possibilitys with skirted outfits are so so much more than is possible or tolerated in pants outfits, then finally there will also be a much larger variety of styles and looks than most would at first even think possible.

* If all men were the same, …… and all men wearing skirts were happy to extend the limitations of the pants world to skirts, then perhaps. But heaven forbid if that was to me “the norm”.

“And EVERY MEN’S garment – skirt or not – is going to have to be compatible with this device! Observe that virtually EVERY pair of men’s pants you can buy has a zipper fly!"

* Who has actually looked closely at where the drips and spatters go, when not wearing pants, which can be moved out of the firing lone so to speak, by spreading the legs? A skirt will always be straight between the fronts of your legs, or even stand out in front, unless lifted high.

"Another approach would be to include sewn-on “outboard” pockets!
Utilikilts takes this approach. It might trade away the sleekness of the men’s skirt, but certainly would work!"

* How much junk do men carry around in reality? Are they also the same men who wear skirts?

* I have cargo pants for vacations, from "Fjall Raven", which are also unzipable for the lower pants segments, these pants most often have large pockets, which are handy for all sorts of things which you want with you which you would not normally have with you. That doesn’t mean that all men’s skirts should have those facilities.

* Do men who wear suits, and neat attire also bulk their pants pockets with mobiles, purses, wallets, keys, handkerchiefs, condoms, hammers, pliers, nails and all the rest which belong in the tool belt?

* If men only want the worker tool belt look, fine, but then also scrap kilts from men’s skirt lists.

* Kilts don’t have pockets!

* Why not just wear a coverall, and a carpenter’s tool belt?

"Most men’s skirts will be ankle length skirts as well,"

* Right, forget Utility kilts. Might as well keep on wearing pants. Long pants.

"My guess is that the length guidelines that now apply to men’s pants will apply to his skirts as well!"

* But don’t forget, skirts are not pants and should not be limited by the boundaries which pants are kept in.

* Full fashion freedom merely says that you can go as far as YOU wish, but Quote: “properly carrying the look off in a believable way”.

* To me, Full fashion freedom says “who is the other person who thinks that he / she can criticize and limit the way I wish to dress? Who are they to put limitations on my freedom? Each person may be free from the limitations, which before hand were forced upon us. We ourselves have always had the freedom to do and go as we pleased, it is the limitations from other people which we then are forced to adhere to which is the very factor we want to break with, as men who wear skirts, calling that break “fashion freedom”. We are free to buy all cars in practically any colour, but we could nearly all buy black cars. Then, If any one would buy a white car, there would be no critisism, as he is free to do so. Real freedom it to go as far as you wish, not having to be as all the other clones, the right to be an individual, and be respected for it, and not be unjustly challenged. Which doesn't mean that everybody would do that, go so far.

* Yes, the “femme” side, or taking it too far is reserved for the individual, and the look he wants. Amongst men there are many who cannot show the way they are, in the pants fashion, but can finally be free in skirting options. If they are femme, mind you still men, then they can show it, respectfully. That will definitely NOT say that all men are then femme. That is the great thing about skirting / freestyle possibilities. Again this is a way of thinking that is just not possible with the pants lobby. There is very little freedom of expression there.

Crfriend: “My only plea in this would be that the practitioner make his skirt believeable: make it something that observers will take one look at and go, "WOW! That looks GOOD!". It all comes down to the message we want to send about ourselves, and how we want the world to interpret us on an initial visual encounter. Choose wisely.”

* That is possibly the key, and leaves each man to his intended image, not that which others for their own convenience limit possibly even more than pants options do.

[Milfmog]

Reading this thesis, the thought that occurred to me was that it makes sense to have some guidance as to what constitutes a man’s skirt, however I don’t think that we at the café are the intended beneficiaries of “the rules”. Those of us who already choose to wear skirts, even “manly” skirts, have probably already overcome the hurdle of buying items from the larger part of the clothing store*. I don’t believe the rules have much to offer to those of us who are already comfortable adopting some “female” clothing concepts; use of a bag instead of pockets, no fly (or side / rear zips), bright colours and patterns, the list goes on.

However, many men have not tried a skirt because it has never occurred to them to do so and they won’t buy “women’s clothes”. For a significant proportion of these men, a skirt that is clearly NOT women’s clothing may help to overcome the second point and once that has been dispensed with they may actually consider a skirt.

If we consider Don’s offering from the perspective of a guy who has never worn a skirt, the “rules” take on a different hue. They seem to be trying to make the leap from two legged garb to a single tube as small as possible. By reducing the number of factors that change with the move from two tubes to one to an absolute minimum they should make it easier for a “normal bloke” to imagine himself in a skirt and perhaps actually try it and when that happens everyone benefits.

Have fun,


Ian.


* We should disregard kilts from this, since even though they are skirts they are clearly men’s wear.

Paragraph 3 edited to correct "...the move from one leg to two" to "...the move from two tubes to one" - I must learn to read the preview more carefully. Sorry - Ian.

[crfriend]

If we consider Don’s offering from the perspective of a guy who has never worn a skirt, the “rules” take on a different hue. They seem to be trying to make the leap from two legged garb to a single tube as small as possible. By reducing the number of factors that change with the move from one leg to two to an absolute minimum they should make it easier for a “normal bloke” to imagine himself in a skirt and perhaps actually try it and when that happens everyone benefits.

Thanks for that, Ian! By placing the presented notions is that light, you've likely shown the intent of them -- not necessarily as "hard and fast rules that all guys must observe at all times", but rather stepping-stones and gentle hints that'll help get more guys "over the hump" of understanding.

[Since1982]

Most of what Carl said makes a lot of sense. I have problems with my hips from polio I had as a child and I wear mostly straight skirts to give me the support I need in the upper thigh and hips area. They are not "pencil skirts" but just straight enough that I would need to either sit to tinkle or pull the front down, reach in, pull something out, do my tinkle, put it back in and go wash my hands. Point being, that in either case I don't have or need a zipper. I do have a few denim skirts with zippers, I don't use them and have sewn them permanently closed. Most of my skirts are either a high mid calf or low knee length and I really never have any problem walking or sitting in them. With my size, I don't do any running, at least I haven't in 25 years.

By the way, if any of my friends would like to see something really different, give me your physical address in the USA or UK and I'll send you a DVD of a movie I was in in 1972, a diving movie called "Deadly Fathoms". In it, I used my mom's last name as mine. I was having some legal problems then regarding the use of my dad's name. I'm in the movie as "Skip Norwood" I'm in a lot of scenes and still looked like I do now, just not as old. Same size then as now. I've always been big. The announcer of this movie was Rod Serling, some of you may have heard of him. He did all the voice - overs for all the "Twilight Zone" programs. The A-bombs that landed on Hiroshima and Nagasaki are pictured in the beginning of the movie.
While filming this movie, I tried on a sarong for the first time and have been stuck on MUGs ever since.

[mugman]

I'm not sure there should be 'rules' for a concept which is still evolving. Some ideas might work, some might seem like good ones, but in practice aren't, and are revamped. Also I think 'rules' is a bad choice of word, and maybe would be better replaced by 'characteristics'. It's less final.
The business of jewelry-like accessories, whilst possible, shouldn't get in the way of, or determine the final skirt design. That's surely individual taste.
I personally prefer earth colours over wild colouring, as I wouldn't want to stand out that much, and I'm sure the nervous first time man's skirt wearer wouldn't want to either. Just my thoughts.

[Peter v]

I THINK:
Guide lines, lines of thought.
Constructive discussion, that is what we need.

If anybody wants to start wearing skirts, there are enough specific skirt examples to be seen, the kilt in numerous forms, and other skirts which men can see which are suited to be worn.

One of the most decisive things may be the fact that men are seen actually wearing a diversity of skirts at a same diversity of occasions. It is then up to the new would be wearer to form in his mind what he would try first, being THE SKIRT HE WOULD WISH TO WEAR, and not HAVING TO START WITH any pre requisited type of skirt. Most probably the choice would fall on any skirt which is neutral. Like denim skirts. Abundant, usually not expensive and fit very well. no need for expensive utility kilts etc for the first buy. From there the man involved would go which ever way HE wishes, and not the way which is pushed upon him, as in: "YOU ARE A MAN AND THEREFORE MUST WEAR CERTAIN TYPES OF SKIRTS"

Although I understand the term "men's skirt", I would rather "skirts worn by men". There is a danger of determining any one type of skirt as a men's skirt. That is thinking along the lines and limitations of pants. Practically all men's pants are the same, only some size differences.

Skirts are so much more diverse, the mind boggles.
I think that perhaps we are thinking along the wrong lines. Men who wear / want to wear skirts have that state of mind and work to the end result of wearing skirts in public. It is in the mind. When men get the "idea" to wear skirts, or better said, the idea is probably there since childhood, but when a man has a moment in which he determines to throw convention which has probably kept him from doing many things, overboard, I think that they would start looking for men who wear skirts.

That should be in the variety, diversity which they do have and all men can and do enjoy. There is no need to present skirts that EVERY pants wearing man would "accept" immediately. It is not for THEM.
It is for men who have the thought in mind. Where that thought comes from? Who's a specialized thought finder?
Too much accent on skirts having to be anything "manly" is pushing something that is not reality. All skirts worn by men are in principle men's skirts. It is the enormous diversity of skirts that are behind that thought. To say anything else would be to project the same narrow sight that we skirt wearers accuse the pants culture of having. Skirts are not simply just one type of garment, pants, which have been "operated" on and sewn differently, making a tube out of the two pants hose. They are a garment that is totally something else.

So although there should be, and are, skirts for every taste and style, including naturally certain types which we know as "manly"or actually clones of pants, but in skirt form, they are only one sort of the massive choices that skirts offer.

I am sure that only open thinking along those lines will secure skirt wearing for most men wanting to wear skirts, and not any narrow focussing on one particular type. Might just as well forget all skirts except the kilt then.......

And for the sceptics, and the pesimists, I am not talking about clothing specifically used, ( however it may be) to imitate being a woman). Actually wearing pants would be the easiest thing to imitate being a woman these days.

[mugman]

If men are to be allowed to do their own thing, where is the problem in a number of men collectively doing their own thing by wanting commonplace man's skirts?
In the real world, most men aren't interested in wearing womens' skirts, which to them would probably be a very poor compromise to trousers. They'll carry on with trousers as the issue of male skirting isn't that important to them. But a selection of man's versions might be what's needed to get them interested.
Another point which occurs to me is that sometimes it's the female of a partnership that has a hand in advising what her partner might like to purchase, and what suits him. If a man's skirt is available, how many of them will feel maybe a little more comfortable about it than him dragging her over to the women's section and she being supportive, but not being totally easy about it? So many emotions are all mixed up in male skirt wearing. Let's make it a bit easier.
There might not be mens' skirt sections commonplace in clothing stores in my lifetime, but I certainly hope there will be in the future.
Continuing to leave it all open-ended, without making anyone's mind up about it through specifically male designed clothing will, I reckon, just delay that day.
And those that 'do their own thing' without being told what to do will do that anyway.
I'm all in favour of skirts which are designed on a male tailor's dummy rather than a female one. And I'm sure the outcome of that will produce skirts which are more practical - maybe also more appealing - for the male wearer.

[mugman]

I just wanted to add that I'm hoping to be correct in recognising that there are those who are attracted to the nature of skirts for their less anatomically encroaching format to trousers. And there are those that go further by also preferring all skirt clothing, whether male or female, to be freely worn by either sex.
I am of the first lot, though I respect the preferences of all.

[Richard III]

Thank you, Uncle Al, for those thoughts.

“Anything goes” isn’t fashion
freedom, it’s FASHION ANARCHY, and that ain’t never gonna happen!

I think this misses the point. Anarchy is rule by nobody, and if you think that nobody should rule how other people dress, then (for what it's worth, using the term "anarchy") you think that fashion anarchy is a good thing. Well, I do.

2. Access to the Plumbing! ... the standup urinal is a HIGHLY EFFICENT
device, and EVERY MEN’S garment – skirt or not – is going to have
to be compatible with this device! Observe that virtually EVERY pair
of men’s pants you can buy has a zipper fly! SO SHALL IT BE with
the men’s skirt!

A zip fly is certainly a useful thing, but then men as well as women need to defecate, and need to sit down to do that, so there will always be stalls in men's toilets. With stalls available, you don't need a zip fly.

3. Pockets:

An important consideration here is that pockets should be designed so that, when in use, they are hard to pick.

4. Length: ... Personally, I have NO INTEREST at ALL in displaying mine [legs]! ... It seems to me
that by this logic, most men’s skirts will be ankle length skirts as
well!

I too prefer long skirts.

5. Fabrics, Prints, Colors:

Some thoughts about fabrics. One advantage of skirts over trousers when it comes to what is actually on sale (as opposed to what a dressmaker could make for you) is that skirts are made in a wide variety of fabrics. Trousers are thick and heavy. This is OK for cold weather, but can be uncomfortable in hot or humid weather. Skirts in light, drapy, flowing fabrics are very comfortable and cool. Therefore I think it would be a good idea for makers of men's skirts to make some in such fabrics. By all means make them in solid blocks of black or dull colours if that's what men want. Many of my skirts, even my flowing summer skirts, are black, and none of them are floral.

6. The "Femme" Side:

On the femme side, jewellery etc., here's something where I'd appreciate some thoughts. My hair is long at the back, plenty long enough for me to tie it back. I could tie it back with one of those cheap coloured elastics, but they pull on the hair rather, and I'd like something more "formal", too. Trouble is that everything I've seen is aimed at women. Where can I get something in a "masculine" material? Leather, perhaps? (There's a leather goods shop in my home town but it doesn't stock anything like that.)

[Uncle Al]

Richard III

Thanks for crediting me with "The Quote" but all I did was quote
someone from another forum. These are his ideas, not mine.

I also agree with Milfmog in his statement....
..."If we consider Don’s offering from the perspective of a guy
who has never worn a skirt, the “rules” take on a different hue."....

As you may have noticed, the 'replies' vary quite widely. Some of
the responses show that a few people still think 'inside-the-box'.
Others show many think 'outside-the-box'. The responses indicate
how they interpreted the original 'thesis' written by Don in New Jersey.

Interpretation is the Golden Key to all of these statements.
Each 'responder' has a slighty different 'key'.


Uncle Al
Duncanville, TX

[Peter v]

Richard, there has been much said about this, and I will give my bit.
"A zip fly is certainly a useful thing, but then men as well as women need to defecate, and need to sit down to do that, so there will always be stalls in men's toilets. With stalls available, you don't need a zip fly."

When fysically possible, and while keeping the skirt clean (from spattering) a suitable long front zipper could be used.
One advantage men have when watering compared to women, is that they do not have any contact with toilet seats, which are not always as clean as should be. But otherwise, I do agree. Not all men's skirts need the front zipper as such. If women can go, then men can go too. Maybe if there were more men having to be seated, even for watering, there may be a much healthier toilet situation. As it is now, anybody is lucky to find a toilet, outside of the home, and while men at least for watering are more flexible, they too need to be seated from time to time. Men wearing skirts are inevitably more aware of the need for clean toilets and toilets with seating arrangements in a greater abundance. Also nothing more day spoiling than having your skirt hang in wet something aruther or worse, while doing the neccessitys. That is when men realise what women go through all the time, at least when also wearing skirts and dresses.

Men in power should wear the garments of others, like skirts and dresses for a while, just to realise what those people have to put up with, and go through. Maybe then, and I am speaking of the situation here in The Netherlands, there would be much more attention paid to facilitys which EVERY person in the Netherlands uses.

Going further on this theme, I have attended some fantasy fairs recently and many women have the most beautiful gowns, skirts, dresses, and it is then that you realise one special factor which plays a big role in the demise of those garments, the very cramped, and of course not so clean toilets. Nearly impossible. No wonder women enjoy pants so much. And to think that while men spatter away (I still do out of a life long habbit) making the whole toilet seat area unhigenic, and somewhat wet, if now that we wear skirts ourselves, and would "go" seated with the skirt held up, the rear of the skirt would hang on the rear of the toilet, which we or another man had just spattered all over Makes you think....

Men know how easy going they are for toilet use, and so do women, who would want to hassle with a long , wide skirt in a narrow toilet?

That is food for thought from a different side than usually talked about.