Lawrence King, murdered at age 15

[Skirt Chaser]

Here's the text of a heartbreaking article found at
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.c ... 01&sc=1000

"The San Francisco Lesbian Gay Bisexual Transgender Community Center holds a vigil Tuesday for Lawrence King, 15, who was shot Feb. 12 at his school in Oxnard (Ventura County) in what is being called a hate crime. The eighth-grader was taken off life support Thursday and his organs donated. Classmates said he wore feminine attire, making him a social outcast. He lived at a center for abused and neglected children. Prosecutors charged a 14-year-old classmate with murder and hate-crime and firearm-use enhancements. The suspect will be tried as an adult, police said."

Today I'm just sad.

[sapphire]

Yes, sad, then angry

[r1g0r]

good!

prosecute the little $h!t as an adult, then let him become an object lesson for all the other under-age mansons we're producing.

i hope they also look into the source of this kid's hatred. if they find the people responsible for teaching this little punk to kill, i hope THEY also get put on trial.

sorry if i sound extreme, but having children killing each other is a good sign (to me) that our society is going to hell quickly.

<stalks away, growling and pulling at non-existant hair>

[sambuka]

prosecute the little $h!t as an adult, then let him become an object lesson for all the other under-age mansons we're producing.

Trying him as an adult will only put one more underage kid in a prison for adult. Result: nil prevention, and the guarantee that this kid, in the presence of adult inmates, will over time emulate his peers and become a dangerous adult convict. I'm not saying here that he should not go to prison; he should, but in a prison for teens, not adults. There's yet to be proof that longer prison sentences and fuller prisons have any influence over crime rate prevention; if it did, don't you agree that the US should have one of the lowest crime rate in the world?

As for the object lesson, how many troubled kids you know that read criminal court proceedings before using a firearm?

i hope they also look into the source of this kid's hatred.

That's probably way more productive, imo. That, and making firearms somewhat more difficult to acquire, especially for troubled teens...

[Uncle Al]

OK----The Constitution of the United States and the Bill of Rights,
gives us the right to bear arms (guns). Granted, if the one 'teaching the
use' of firearms doesn't do it correctly, and enforce the fact that it
is for hunting game, and/or protection against aggressors, then we
will be filling more prisons. Making a gun harder to aquire will only
result in criminals having guns, and the rest of the law abiding
citizens not. My wife doesn't like guns. The ones I do have, are
locked in a gun cabinet at my father-in-laws. A few of them are
over 60 years old. My dad's cavelry pistol, still shows the 1911
patent number.

When I was in the 4th grade, my dad gave me a Winchester 22/410
'over-under' single shot, and taught me to shoot and hunt.
( Granted, I couldn't hit the broad side of a barn with in 10 feet. )
I don't hunt anymore, but cherish the memories of the times my
dad & I had together. ( He's been gone 24 years. )

IMHO gun control is for the extreme Bible thumping
liberalists/pacifists who really don't want to protect themselves,
their family or their country.

I usually don't bring out my soapbox, and yes-hate crimes
should be punnished. The Parents of the 14 yr old should
also be tried for their bigotry macho-isim, that what is different
is bad, and needs to be done away with/eliminated.

Parents - TAKE CONTROL! Be INVOLVED with your children!
Don't depend on society to raise your kids. That's YOUR RESPONSIBILITY!

If this sounds like I'm flaming anyone, sorry--I'm not specifying
any individual person, place or thing, just parents in general.
My folks didn't let me get away with a lot of 'stuff'. They 'nipped it
in the bud' so to speak. They taught me right from wrong, and to
remember the 'Golden Rule'.


Uncle Al
Duncanville, TX

note-edited for spelling errors

[Sarongman]

Damn it, yes Uncle Al, if there's room on your soap box, I'll get up right alongside you! Something is VERY wrong with society. Human life seems to have ben devalued and respect for others, although lip service is paid, is lessening. Banning the private ownership of firearms is akin to slapping a bandage on a dirty' festering sore. You have covered the infection without cleaning and/or cauterising the wound, which is worse than useless! The legislation punishes the innocent majority and satisfies the slitty eyed idealogues while having no effect whatsoever on the criminals.
The gratuitous violence pumped out by the entertainmaent media, some of it, to my mind, quite sickening must have some deleterious effect on the younger generation who are, from infancy, hardened and made callous. It is almost getting to the stage where we are back in Tudor England when public disembowellment and butchering of traitors was a public entertainment! Someone is in pain- "I don't feel pain therefore it is funny." If so many of these kids grow up not able to identify with the other, I do fear for society's future. I know there are a lot of children growing up today that do have empathy in bucketloads but, there remain a growing core group who are callous and violent and I don't know of any easy answer.Maybe this analogy is apt from James Redfield's "A Celestine Prophecy" A Cherokee leader was out in the forest initiating the young members of the tribe into adulthood. In the course of the rites he told the story about the two wolves that are always fighting in every human soul_ the benevolent wolf of peace and joy, and the malevolent one forever on the prowl. "And which wolf wins?" a youngster asked. "The one you feed was the reply. Which wolf are we, as a society, feeding with our every word, thought and breath?
OOPS I got so agitated I just fell off the soap box

[ChristopherJ]

He (Lawrence King) was gay and had asked the boy who shot him to be his Valentine. I think that's really sweet. But I guess the boy couldn't handle that - or the fact that Lawrence wore feminine clothes.

So sad.

http://www.egossip.com/celebrity/ellen- ... rder-10840

[Departed Member]

He (Lawrence King) was gay and had asked the boy who shot him to be his Valentine. I think that's really sweet. But I guess the boy couldn't handle that - or the fact that Lawrence wore feminine clothes.

Mmnn, that's put a whole different slant on the issue. What was the other kid's 'orientation', I wonder? Was the 'clothing issue' but a side issue? Had it, in fact, any relevance to the violent reaction? Or was 'misrepresentation' a factor? There's more to this, than meets the eye, mark my words. Strikes me, the 'victim' may well have brought this (while fully deploring the over-reaction, and subsequent consequences) upon himself.

In respect of 'blaming the parents', however popular with the PC brigade, I wouldn't be prepared to 'judge', and would never approve of 'third party punishment' - whatever the case. We've slid down that road in the UK, over school truancy, and it's one of the few things that would make me totally ashamed to be called, 'British'. It doesn't work, it's contravening the parent's (however ill-educated) rights and is fundamentally immoral.

[Uncle Al]

Merlin,

In respect of 'blaming the parents', however popular
with the PC brigade, I wouldn't be prepared to 'judge', and would
never approve of 'third party punishment' - whatever the case.
We've slid down that road in the UK, over school truancy, and it's one
of the few things that would make me totally ashamed to be called, 'British'.
It doesn't work, it's contravening the parent's (however ill-educated)
rights and is fundamentally immoral.

My Soapbox again

The problem is that the Parents are not exercising their rights.
They may fear 'child abuse' charges against them.
They are not making their kids lead a structured life. When was
the last time you turned the TV off and sat down to the dinner table
with your entire family? Children need guidence, structure and
examples. They need specific times for meals with the family,
study, play and bedtime.
This needs to be started at a very early age.

My 15 year old nephew is a good example. His mother would not
let his dad ( my brother-in-law ) spank him when he mis-behaved.
She threatened child abuse, divorce and no parental visitation if
he spanked my nephew. Now, my nephew is highly ADD. To much
freedom for him, stress between the parents, and not enough
Positive attention paid to the kids. They need love
and attention, not yelling at the top of your lungs at them.

Valentines Day Cards were never an issue when I was a kid.
We gave them to all of our friends. Maybe the kid was trying
to be friends with the classmate. It doesn't matter if the kid was
gay or not. He was trying to live his life, his way.
Just as we tell each other here, to be ourselves as skirt/kilt wearers.
As adults we are more capable of handling these situations.
This is due to our up-bringing, education and the respect we were
taught as children. This is where Parental Guidence comes in.

OK-Now I will put away my 'box'

Sarongman-Sorry if I accidentaly pushed you off. I guess I'll
have to get a larger 'box' next time.


Uncle Al
Duncanville, TX

[crfriend]

He (Lawrence King) was gay and had asked the boy who shot him to be his Valentine. I think that's really sweet. But I guess the boy couldn't handle that - or the fact that Lawrence wore feminine clothes.

So sad.

http://www.egossip.com/celebrity/ellen- ... rder-10840

I absolutely agree that this case is pure tragedy right from the get-go -- for everyone involved -- but suspect that the homosexuality aspect is being used to "fan the flames". Over the years I've learned to treat any source of information with a bit of a jaundiced eye, and to use as many sources as possible before passing judgement.

My personal "take" on this is that what happened was a case of "multiple failure" where many supporting links burst at the same time leading to the catastrophic outcome. Had any of those "structures" held, the incident would have been averted.

First and foremost, I suspect that the kid that pulled the trigger didn't have a firm notion of the difference between reality and fantasy and, thus, could not be aware of the consequence of his actions. This condition, thanks to several vectors, is vastly more common than anybody would like to admit in the US (and likely growing elsewhere); a quick look at modern media (e.g. TV) can handily point up one source. (This, by the way, is the reason that society treats juveniles differently from adults, and also forms the basis for the "insanity defence".)

Two: The kid that pulled the trigger was highly unstable to be able to perform the act, even if he didn't understand the consequence; why was this not noticed, and the proper steps undertaken with the parents to correct it?

Three: Why wasn't the kid that pulled the trigger well versed in the basic standards of public behaviour? At 14, I was expected to behave, if not like an adult, at least in manners that would not negatively impact those around me. Where were the parents?

Four: The kid that pulled the trigger rather clearly had no clear guidance about simple right and wrong -- shooting people is just simply not done unless your own life is in mortal peril at the hands of another. Where were the parents?

Five: Access to the weapon. This will rankle the Second Amendment crowd in the US, but it's not intended to. If an adult is entrusted (i.e. licensed) to possess firearms, it's that individual's responsibility to ensure that no one that is not authorised to access said weapons has access; this is law in many jurisdictions, and the law has teeth (I've read' em, so trust me -- I know -- and I don't want to run afoul of them). If the weapon was sourced from a family member, one can expect charges to be filed; if it was street-sourced, who knows.

In short, we don't have enough information on hand to draw one conclusion or another; all we know is that one child shot and killed another. We also know that it's something that happens vastly too frequently for any of our tastes. Whether the 15 year-old was homosexual or not is absolutely immaterial (15's a bit early for that, anyway); the case should stand on the act in question.

To address Merlin's comment on "third-party punishment" I'd like to note that the parents of the shooter are not third parties. They brought the kid into the world, and it is their responsibility to ensure that the child can integrate into society. To not do so amounts to negligence, and negligence leading to loss is very frequently a chargeable offence. I'm not saying that charges in this case might be appropriate, but that they should be considered -- and that everybody involved (bystanders included) should take a step back and learn from this, and put the lessons learned to good use so the same sad event doesn't happen again.

I'd also like to state that trying a 14 tear old as an adult is just plain insane. That's not justice -- that's revenge. If revenge is what we're after as a society, why not just up the charge to capital murder, stuff the kid in the gas chamber, and be done with? I'd like to think we're better than that.

[Departed Member]

The problem is that the Parents are not exercising their rights.
They may fear 'child abuse' charges against them.
They are not making their kids lead a structured life. When was
the last time you turned the TV off and sat down to the dinner table
with your entire family? Children need guidence, structure and
examples. They need specific times for meals with the family,
study, play and bedtime.
This needs to be started at a very early age.

'Funnily enough', I agree with you, totally! That (a structured upbringing) IS how we brought up our kids, and my eldest also tries to do the same with his two. All of this taking into account, one (or both) parents having to work shifts. TV in both families was/is 'low priority'.

However, pressures to 'kow-tow' to the PC-brigade ARE enormous in today's society. I make no bones about the fact that I detest everything about it - including the assumption that 'kids don't realise what they're doing and that it must be the parents 'fault', somewhere along the line'. Poppycock! The vast majority of pressures on kids start 'in school'. Those teachers that actually care about their charges 'social conditioning' are often ostracised by their less passionate ('take the money & run'!) colleagues, to say nothing of ill-advised and all-too-common 'witch-hunt's of highly (over?) paid Social Services personnel. This isn't idle speculation, but personal experience, both as a former School Governor & grandparent!

[WSmac]

I believe that a juvenile, in the US, is always remanded to the juvenile authority even if tried as an adult.
When this juvenile reaches adult age, he/she would be turned over to the appropriate correctional authority.

I have never heard of a 14y.o. being sent to an adult prison, in modern times.
Please correct me if I am wrong.

Also..

We're not living too long from the times when a 14 y.o. male was not considered a 'child' in the same sense they are today.

I am not making a judgment call this kid, just a statement in general.

I have not read the news article so I do not know even those scant 'facts'.
My comments are made with that ignorance established.
eta (I just went and read the short story)

I do believe that the gun owner should be investigated and possibly held accountable for the access this kid had to the firearm. I say 'possibly' because it may have been locked up with diligence only to be stolen.

I'm curious what people expect will happen if we put the parents of the shooter up for trial?
Will it make them better parents?
Will it "teach a lesson" to other parents?
Will it "make things better" in any fashion?

I think not, personally.

If anything, perhaps the state should investigate the home and see if there is inappropriate living conditions for any other children there.
I believe there is nothing to be done to the shooter's family that will make a positive difference in our world, unless there is some definite neglect and abuse going on in the home which the state can identify and deal with.

I do believe the shooter should learn about taking responsibility for his actions.
I also believe that there may be an opportunity to work with him and help him to not repeat such actions in the future.
If he does not respond to 'treatment', then as a society, we cannot afford to allow him to wander about free.
I see no benefit to him or society from locking him up in prison.

We should overhaul the penal system and save prisons for violent, non-reforming people.
There should be a different institution for those who are not violent, yet need correction in order to live peacefully in society.
Farther down would be the jails for short-term confinement for minor offenses.

We should stop this ignorant 'war on drugs' where it applies to something like marijuana.
We should send non-violent drug abusers to a drug abusers facility... not a prison for violent criminals.
And treatment for those addicted to drugs should not be measured in weeks... more like months and years.

If you take into count things like the population growth, over the years, I'm not so sure we're seeing an escalation of young criminals.
Young people have always contributed to our crimes.

[ChristopherJ]

Strikes me, the 'victim' may well have brought this (while fully deploring the over-reaction, and subsequent consequences) upon himself.

That comes across to me as a homophobic comment, and I'm not comfortable with it at all.

I'm not gay and so have no axe to grind here, but that boy *did not* bring this (his murder) on himself. All that he did was to express affection for another human being - and to wear clothing of his own choice. Neither deserves a violent death, in my opinion.

[sapphire]

Hi Chris,
Thank you for your comment. However, it goes way beyond homophobia. It goes to the rape victims who "asked for it". It goes beyond denying promotions/equal salaries because of one's dress.

In a past post, I recounted professional discrimination because I am female. I also posted how a wonderful birthday was ruined when I wore a dress that Carl had given me. When Carl took me out to dinner an old drunk decided that I was a whore because of my beautiful dress and nagged me to provide service. After a long effort I was able to brush him off, but I really wanted to stick a fork in his eye.

Unfortunately this predation is extending to men who want to look nice.

[Bob]

I agree with ChristopherJ here.

The fact is, most 14-year-old boys make inappropriate romantic advances at some point. I certainly did when I was fourteen. The girls who received my advances rejected them --- politely or impolitely. What if one of them had shot me? Would people say that I "brought it upon myself?"

So why should we think it makes any difference whether those inappropriate advances were made to a boy instead of a girl? He could have just said "no" and moved on. The fact is, girls are used to saying "no" to relationships they don't want. Boys need to learn how as well, without resorting to murder.

And yes, I've been propositioned by a man before. I said "no." I didn't go back and shoot him. Puleeez!