skirtcafe.org

Ok, I've added the deed by the word. A pict of mine now features on the MIS Wikipedia page. If you prefer the color version, then let me know...
(I can add more, but don't want to 'monopolise' the page) Maybe add a link to
http://users.telenet.be/jbruyndonckx/janAlbum.html
would be (more) appropriate? Just let me know...

Jan

Big and Bashful wrote:[...]Let's Get Battered Trout[...]

That's a capital idea. Seconded!

This hullabaloo about Mr. Allyn's images on Wikipedia is bad enough, but the images themselves, and the political statement behind them is profoundly "unhelpful" to what the general MIS group is trying to achieve -- the acceptance of skirted garments for everyday males. Depending on the readership of Wikipedia, this could set things back years.

I'm not normally one to bash homosexuals, but when a political agenda collides with mine I'm likely to take a potshot or two. What Mr. Allyn is doing, if allowed to continue, will undermine the notion of "garment equality" (for want of a better term at the moment) by inextricably linking it with sexual perversion (There, I've gone and said it!) -- and that'll drive the average bloke off like a shot. Face it, the term "homosexual" (and all its PC progeny) is still regarded as a grave insult by, quite probably, the overwhelming proportion of males, and is probably one, if not the main, reason we're backed into such an uncomfortable corner when it comes to conformity and attire. This jab, which I perceive as a direct attempt to co-opt or undermine a perfectly reasonable goal is just beyond the pale. I'm not privy to Mr. Allyn's motives, but I suspect they're not on the "up and up". If this continues, perhaps the best bet might be to delete the Wikipedia MIS entry entirely because of the falseness that's going to be interpreted by the bulk of the population.

SteveD wrote:At the moment, it looks as if Mark Allyn's photos on the Wikipedia MIS page are there to stay. Anyone can delete them, but he will only replace them, and I'm not sure what the Wiki admin's response would be to such a ping-pong series of edits.

I don't know the inner workings of Wikipedia, but there has to be some form of access control to keep certain things from showing up that are either illegal or so ethically tasteless that they'd be overtly offensive. In fact such mechanisms surely must be in place to keep things like holocaust-denial (which is illegal in several jurisdictions) out. Now, what we've got going on here is nothing much akin to that, but still, the page, and the concepts that it espouses are being compromised and co-opted by a person with an agenda that, I'd posit, is rather offensive to a large percentage of the population. I do not want to censor Mr. Allyn's content or motives, I just don't want them linked to Men In Skirts.

SteveD wrote:Sorry, Steve 1, but I don't agree with [the Allyn images] one little bit. Like many of us here, I think the photos are awful and give completely the wrong impression of what 'mainstream MIS' (to coin a phrase) is about.

Seconded. I'd rather the MIS page not be there than convey the implicit message that it's about being a "radical faerie" (or fairy). If it's not possible for the page to convey the message that it should be acceptable for normal males to wear skirted garments as everyday wear it should be pulled down as a disservice.

Just had a look, Kiltair, excellent picture, monochrome gives it a nice moodyness as well. Meanwhile the loony has replaced his bloody pictures again. Got things to do today but tonight I am going to try binning his pictures and adding an entry to the discussion page to say why I don't think they should be on it. If a few more people add to the discussion then we could get enough ammo to go to a Wikipedia Advocate about this guy perverting the intent of the page. I would suggest that making personal attacks on him will not help, better to use logic and show that he is spoiling both the MIS and the skirts entries in the wiki. I used to think the wikipedia was a great resource but if one f****wit can destroy the meaning of a page and gets away with it, then the wiki as a tool will fail to be taken seriously. Woe is me! and thrice woe!

crfriend wrote: Seconded. I'd rather the MIS page not be there than convey the implicit message that it's about being a "radical faerie" (or fairy). If it's not possible for the page to convey the message that it should be acceptable for normal males to wear skirted garments as everyday wear it should be pulled down as a disservice.

Thirded...I rather not be associated with the "radical faerie movement" either. Noodles graciously makes a good case in the discussion area as to why Allyn's photos do not represent the majority of MIS. Looks like the more discussion, the better.

binx

Hi guys!

I've just caught up on this thread, and I had no idea Mark's clothes had generated so much discussion. I saw his photos elsewhere on wikipedia, and desperately wanting something to brighten up the article, I invited him to contribute to it. Personally I think his boldness is great, although he's not the best looking guy, and his taste won't keep everyone happy.

Bear in mind that (a) he has put some photos there, where some were needed, and (b) that has at least kicked the rest of you into action. (Thanks Jan, for that excellent photo you've just added). Now, if we could get one or two more... :rolleyes:

If there is a consensus that Mark's photos are not wanted, so be it. But he's a very nice guy, so don't be unkind about it. I'll leave that to the anarchy of the system

Steve

PS. But in any case, please discuss it on the talk page before removing his photos. Good reasons should be given and agreed on.

Hi Steve,

Steve 1 wrote:I've just caught up on this thread, and I had no idea Mark's clothes had generated so much discussion. I saw his photos elsewhere on wikipedia, and desperately wanting something to brighten up the article, I invited him to contribute to it. Personally I think his boldness is great, although he's not the best looking guy, and his taste won't keep everyone happy.

The points that have been brought up here are mainly that Mr. Allyn's photographs are not "mainstream" and that within two or three mouse-clicks one arrives at places that lots of folks would rather not be -- especially the average bloke who, whilst possibly interested in skirts may well be a bit insecure (far too many guys are) and who would get decidedly the wrong ideas about the matter of MIS. Yes, that may count as a "POVPush" (Wikipedian for "Point Of View Push"), but if the tone of the article is to be truly neutral then the LGBT "hooks"/"agendas" need to be removed. Yes, those are perceptions of mine and may not reflect the views of other folks here, but I stand by them.

Steve 1 wrote:(Thanks Jan, for that excellent photo you've just added). Now, if we could get one or two more... :rolleyes:

That's a awesome photograph. It was also, I believe, professionally shot and produced, and that will always produce better results than the webcam/cellphone-pic can. Getting stuff taken professionally also costs money, and I'd posit that the average bloke is probably (1) self-conscious about such perceived vanity and (2) hasn't got the spare cash lying about.

Steve 1 wrote:[Mark's] a very nice guy, so don't be unkind about it. I'll leave that to the anarchy of the system

I'm sure that he's a perfectly affable chap in person, and he does have a flair for the flamboyant, but it's all the other baggage that detracts from the message. I never perceived any of this as being a personal attack, but rather a realisation that the clothes are so far off the centerline that they're somewhat jarring to behold, and that if one does a trivial amount of link-following things come out that are detrimental to the notion that plain old everyday blokes can wear skirted garments and be anything other than plain old everyday blokes.

Steve 1,

I endorse everything crfriend says in the preceding post. In particular, this observation from one of his (crfriend) earlier posts, is most telling, and the most worrying:

Quote: "This hullabaloo about Mr. Allyn's images on Wikipedia is bad enough, but the images themselves, and the political statement behind them is profoundly "unhelpful" to what the general MIS group is trying to achieve -- the acceptance of skirted garments for everyday males. Depending on the readership of Wikipedia, this could set things back years." Unquote.

Hmm... looks like a lot of discussion has gone on about the images since I posted on the article's talk page last night. The old images are gone and a new, and frankely much nicer (in my opinion), image has been uploaded. This one just looks much more professional and even has a "cool" factor going for it, which is always good.

Just checked the wiki page and it looks good, only one picture, but a good one.Checked the discussion page as well and it appears that Mark is happy with the page as it now is, all appears to be well with the world

I am now going to live happily ever after, with some wine.

Looks safe, honest, decent, and somewhat macho. But the picture caption claims that the jeans kilt was designed by the author. Is this true?

binx

Must admit, feeling slightly sheepish about what I said (and thought) about Mark, now I am starting to think there was no real sinister intent, just an eccentric taste and maybe an [FONT=Times New Roman]Exhibitionist [/FONT]streak and a lot more courage than many of us. I'm glad things got resolved though. My pie is feeling slightly humble at the minute.

Big and Bashful wrote:[...]I am starting to think there was no real sinister intent, just an eccentric taste and maybe an Exhibitionist streak and a lot more courage than many of us.

I am very glad that this is coming into perspective. Upon investigation, all parties have comported themselves well, and that's to be lauded. There was NO intent of co-opting the Wikipedia MIS page, and I humbly apologise for my assertion that such may have been the case.

The above stated, I still vehemently feel that the linkage of "average everyday blokes in skirted garments" with anything else should not happen. The whole notion is on thin enough ice on its own; to weigh it down with extra baggage may, sadly, doom it to failure.

Given what's transpired at Wikipedia, my hat's off to all. Well done, lads, well done.

If anyone out there has better pictures but doesn't fancy trying to change wiki themselves I could take the photos and make the changes myself, well, try to anyway.

I got some photos of myself outdoors. But I've been told here that men who wear mini skirts and tights "could give MIS a bad name - as no-one would take them seriously!".

Huh!

[FONT="Verdana"]<flounces off thread . . . >[/FONT]

Big and Bashful wrote:just an eccentric taste and maybe an [FONT=Times New Roman]Exhibitionist [/FONT]streak and a lot more courage than many of us.

I didn't read what you wrote before - but what you've written there is right on the nail, I think. That's what I admire about the guy

Anywho, it does look very good now. Thanks to Mark for his pics in the interim, and I sorry to see him go from the page.