skirtcafe.org

crfriend wrote: ↑Thu Aug 06, 2020 1:47 am The answer to "unharassed" prior to 2010 is, "Yes". BTDT. Been at it since about 2002 with only a couple of random incidents which were attributable to other things.

The LGBTQWTF movement may have seemed to ease matters, but that's more down to legalism and legislation rather than outright acceptance by the general public. You can legislate behaviour by way of making certain behaviours illegal, but one cannot legislate nor mandate acceptance. That comes at a vastly slower pace, and entirely likely one-to-one interactions between individuals.

I've noticed a big difference between when I was in high school (graduated 2000) vs when Amber was in high school (graduated 2017) with regard to LGBT acceptance, and I believe that while many of us may not identify with such (and I DO RESPECT you all's various opinions on who each of you are,) I also belive the overall acceptance of all things "queer" has had a halo effect with regards to the non-kilted skirt wearing man.

There appears to be no limit to how feminine we may choose to express ourselves, granted many of us may not wish to express ourselves femininely at all... but such is now our right to choose, and I believe a big part of this new found liberty is in direct correlation with the rising of LGBT awareness.

My big question in all this when did sex and gender get separated???

I'm in my 40s and from the time I was a child if when filling out a document or legal form. Whether it said gender or sex on the form, it meant fill or mark down either male or female. When did this redefining take place?
Intrinsically all this non binary spectrum stuff has done is taken something simple and made it into a headache.

I don't know what to call them, and I might offend or hurt there feelings if I call them the wrong thing.

All it really does is confuse everyone.
And it also make s it impossible for a man to be a man while wearing a skirt.

Most people don't ask questions mentally if they see a woman in a skirt, jeans or button down shirt, sweat pants, short hair cut, etc. They just see a woman. I bet a woman could wear a garbage bag. And while people might question why she is wearing a garbage bag most are not going to conclude she must identify as garbage.

But with the whole gender spectrum, identify as you wish. Don't help the men in skirt movement at all. If a man puts on a skirt he is no longer a heterosexual male . He surely is something on the (other) list between b to z.
Because "after all men don't wear skirts"
Also with a spectrum of genders and self identify. Where does it stop????
Today I can be a man, tomorrow a woman, the next maby I'll go 50 / 50. After that maby I'll identify as a cat. Maby I can identify as a Chicago hot dog? I have been to Chicago, with a bun and relish in my pants, bam I have everything to be a great Chicago dog," I have arrived!! "
Perhaps after that one could insist they are 3 years old wear diapers and want to go to your neighborhood daycare, with your grand children.

A Pandora's box has been opened up with alot of "potential evil" in it while there is some good there, and some things can be harmless, I feel that more harm than good will come from it. And alot of innocent people will be hurt, especially future generations.

Lately I have been seeing alot of the slogan love is love. On the surface sounds great. love is a good thing right?
Two consenting adults ok good, good. Don't discriminate, your a hater and a biggot if you do. Perhaps why limit marriage to two people? 3 or 4 surely that will be more fun. Love is love after all. 3 or 4 and throw in a horse of course, love is love after all. Don't agree? Your backward biggot and a hater. Don't judge love is love
What if it's a 30 year old and a 7 year old? Love Is love right? Eventually everything will have to be accepted. The box is open humanity is in trouble.

Earlier I mentioned being a cat purr haps?

There are already men that identify with dog's.
Go figure men can be dogs, but they can't be a man in a skirt.

https://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radi ... ve-as-dogs

I was once told off for wearing a jumper and no tie for a formal project meeting at the parent company's main offices instead of a shirt and tie. That was about 1999 and I was well integrated in the IT culture. Yes, to a certain extent we wrote our own rules because of the "youth culture" of computer "nerds" being different from the surrounding culture. But IT personnel still had to function within that surrounding culture and those governing that culture had a lot more power than the "monkeys" in IT. So when dealing with those up the hierarchy we had to conform to their rules or walk. It became more and more an area of friction as local managers were replaced with managers from the parent company. It's one of the reasons I left - the environment became more toxic and the job just wasn't fun any more. I think that Carl will know exactly what I am talking about.

So even though the parent company would be a signatory to Diversity the chances of being able to wear a skirt in such an environment would be virtually nil, unless you were prepared to dig in and really fight. I could be wrong and times may have changed but as an employer they can hire and fire at will and choose who they hire as replacements. Maybe I'm making assumptions but the bank is about to make thousands redundant over the next few years and that was before our current pandemic ....

Historically, and in the present, there have been cultures in which skirt-like, dress-like, and robe-like garments have been deemed mainstream menswear.

Unfortunately, Western Civilization dictated (with very few exceptions) a Trousers Tyranny for men. So if open ended garments were worn almost exclusively by women, it is not surprising that skirts came to be strongly associated with femininity. Hence the Taboo against MIS.

However, as this Taboo is a social construct (and a rather stupid one), it is not surprising that some otherwise conforming Cis/Hetero men are interested in wearing skirts.

I recall a post describing the membership of Skirts Cafe. It is not monolithic. You have members who are otherwise conforming Cis/Hetero men who are interested in skirts. You have free stylers. What they have in common is an interest in open ended garments. And despite the differences Skirt Cafe has been able to function due to a sort of libertarian/live-and-let-live vibe.

My point being that I would be careful about over generalizing regarding members. Some members may have a perspective quite different from yours.

Sinned has a good point regarding conformance to employer rules. This brings up the question of trade offs. Is it worth losing the job by insisting on skirting in the work place?

For many of us, the answer may be no. Just not worth it. Some of us compartmentalize our lives. We do our skirting on our own time, but outwardly conform when on the job. Even someone as bold as Moon Shadow does this. As do I.

mishawakaskirt wrote: ↑Thu Aug 06, 2020 6:50 pm My big question in all this when did sex and gender get separated???

The real question is "When did they get conflated?"  The answer is that they never were the same thing but "gender" has incorrectly been used as a polite word for sex and this has caused the confusion.  Sex is biological, gender is social (and grammatical) and, although they often align in a particular way, they are actually independent of each other and neither is something the individual can choose.

Whether it said gender or sex on the form, it meant fill or mark down either male or female.

The person who wrote the form got it wrong, most official forms in the UK don't make that mistake (although the online driving licence application form is wrong, even though the paper version is correct).

I don't know what to call them, and I might offend or hurt there feelings if I call them the wrong thing.

Your sex and gender are based on what is between your legs when you are born PERIOD!!
You are either male or female. If you remove or add to whats between your legs your genes do not change.
I call them by male pronouns or female pronouns. If that offends them then they can get over it..

Fred in Skirts wrote: ↑Thu Aug 06, 2020 9:37 pm

I don't know what to call them, and I might offend or hurt there feelings if I call them the wrong thing.

Your sex and gender are based on what is between your legs when you are born PERIOD!!
You are either male or female. If you remove or add to whats between your legs your genes do not change.
I call them by male pronouns or female pronouns. If that offends them then they can get over it..

As you don't seem to mind people being offended, you will have no objection to me offending you by saying that is an ignorant, false and bigoted statement which shows a complete lack of consideration for the feelings of other people.

[ If the moderators don't like this, I respectfully suggest they delete the post which led to this reply.]

mishawakaskirt wrote: ↑Thu Aug 06, 2020 6:50 pm I don't know what to call them, and I might offend or hurt there feelings if I call them the wrong thing.

You can ask them what they would like you to call them; they will only be hurt or offended if you deliberately call them something they don't want to be called.  It is the same procedure we have been using for centuries:
"Hello, what is your name?";
"I'm Angela";
"Hello Angela".

NOT

"Hello, what is your name?";
"I'm Angela";
"You look butch to me, so I'm going to call you Butch  ... "Hey!!! Butch!!!"

pelmut wrote: ↑Thu Aug 06, 2020 9:50 pm[ If the moderators don't like this, I respectfully suggest they delete the post which led to this reply.]

This has been building to this point for some time, and I've seen and noted it.

The two are discrete, but in the "conventional" world are regarded as the same. This is erroneous. Aside from that, what's wrong with treating human beings as human beings? That alleviates much of the problem.

mishawakaskirt wrote: ↑Thu Aug 06, 2020 6:50 pm My big question in all this when did sex and gender get separated???

I don't know... but it was apparently prior to 1974 which was the publication date of this dictionary...
I would appear that even then gender wasn't as cut and dry as many assumed.

moonshadow wrote: ↑Fri Aug 07, 2020 12:41 amI don't know... but it was apparently prior to 1974 which was the publication date of this dictionary...

The only problem with that is that it's the linguistic definition not the societal one that's in place today. Of course everybody gets those confused and gets their knickers in a knot when one uses proper English, especially in its formal forms...

crfriend wrote: ↑Fri Aug 07, 2020 12:56 am

moonshadow wrote: ↑Fri Aug 07, 2020 12:41 amI don't know... but it was apparently prior to 1974 which was the publication date of this dictionary...

The only problem with that is that it's the linguistic definition not the societal one that's in place today. Of course everybody gets those confused and gets their knickers in a knot when one uses proper English, especially in its formal forms...

Eh... I rather like what one member posted here some time back... "it's not about me."

I like that.

I've already written my thoughts on how I personally relate to the trans community... aside from that I'm fine to just leave people be to explore who they are.

Live... and let live.

And as for the "identifying as a cat" comment...

Come to my house... I spoil cats!

While we're on the subject of sex....


Suddenly it all makes perfect sense!

Fred in Skirts wrote: ↑Thu Aug 06, 2020 3:37 pm

Your sex and gender are based on what is between your legs when you are born PERIOD!!
You are either male or female. If you remove or add to whats between your legs your genes do not change.
I call them by male pronouns or female pronouns. If that offends them then they can get over it..

pelmut » Thu Aug 06, 2020 3:50 pm
As you don't seem to mind people being offended, you will have no objection to me offending you by saying that is an ignorant, false and bigoted statement which shows a complete lack of consideration for the feelings of other people.

Fred, some of us are at an age that indeed your response is the answer we grew up with; but we need not be dinosaurs or fossils incapable of growing and learning; nor be deliberately unkind. How about hermaphrodites? You may have also come from an era and background where sexual orientation other than hetero was so foreign that we could not believe it was possible unless mentally ill; yet likely in time you've come to learn through personal acquaintances and a little exercise of the synapses that there was more to the world than our initial take on it. I readily concede it is pretty wild out there now with a "hundred pronouns", even a bit silly perhaps with the loudest acrimonious voices seeming to be those within each of their own 'groups'--however, tolerance, respect, and acknowledging the humanity of each individual strikes me as more productive than asserting our own view as the only one possible. There is something else between our legs, let's not allow that define us anymore than some other 'bit' while on this grand exploration of life and MIS!