I suspect that often.
I still don't care.
I suspect that often.
While I agree that the confines of the standard male wardrobe feel like a straight jacket sometimes, I don't agree that makes any step outside of those confines necessarily makes us "non-binary" by any definition.
Just look at the number of people here using looking "normal" and "natural" as the highest complement that can be given to a man's skirted outfit.
But some of us don't want to send a message at all. We don't want to be seen as gay or trans. We can be our "genuine selves" no matter what we are wearing. We just want a few more options of what to wear as men.
Misinterpreting is not hate.
But once men in skirts are "normalized," doesn't that mean that (by definition) skirts would be part of "normal" menswear, and therefore part of the (now larger) box of what is acceptable male behavior? Wouldn't that mean that men in skirts would then be firmly in the "binary" category, as opposed to your "non-binary" category that you are insisting we are all a part of? That's what I am working towards.
There are very big differences between drag, transgenderism, crossdressing, and (I would argue) men in skirts.
I may be mad about it, but I'm not for rioting, and don't want to be seen as associated with people engaging in wanton destruction for any reason.
lawsuits ... resentment
Have you thought that maybe some think you are trying to pass as a woman, and they are actually trying to NOT play along? Just a thought...
Dust said: some of us have principles
And thus outside the umbrella. They (LGBT community) don't see us as one of them, unless we go into the "femme" type stuff, or are homosexual, or want a female name/non-male pronouns.rode_kater wrote: ↑Wed Aug 05, 2020 10:27 pm I realised I don't think they know where to place us either. There was a presentation at work for pride week to explain the whole trans thing and they had four categories you could be non-binary in:
* sex (which bits)
* gender identity (man/woman)
* homosexual/heterosexual/asexual
* gender expression (masculine/feminine)
If you're a masculine heterosexual man wearing a skirt, by this definition you're not non-binary.
I doubt he knew we exist, and if he did, he probably wouldn't say that we "count" as under the umbrella of LGBT.rode_kater wrote: ↑Wed Aug 05, 2020 10:27 pm The presenter briefly mentioned "transvestism" (hate the word) and suggested it was mostly a fetish thing. I'm kinda annoyed I didn't see it live because I wanted to ask a question about that. This person clearly did not consider us an interesting group. What we're trying to do is redefine gender expression, but that breaks the model.
The "T" part for sure, since many of them use heavy handed opposite sex stereotypes to make the point of how they wish to be treated/addressed.rode_kater wrote: ↑Wed Aug 05, 2020 10:27 pm On the whole LGBTQ have made huge strides, but in a sense I feel they are strengthening the gender expression binary, which is kind of the opposite goal of fashion freedom.
Pdxfashionpioneer wrote: ↑Fri Jul 31, 2020 11:12 am Dust wrote:While I agree that the confines of the standard male wardrobe feel like a straight jacket sometimes, I don't agree that makes any step outside of those confines necessarily makes us "non-binary" by any definition.
Sorry, but it does. All it means is that we do do something, present ourselves in a way that doesn't match the standard societal for a Man. It implies nothing about about your Sexual Identity, clearly you identify as a Male, nor about your Sexual Orientation, clearly you consider yourself to be Heterosexual. Not that it matters but I do as well on both counts.
Pdxfashionpioneer wrote: ↑Fri Jul 31, 2020 11:12 am The difference between us seems to be that I accept that how one dresses is a big piece of their Gender Expression and therefore Gender Identity is how they dress.
Pdxfashionpioneer wrote: ↑Fri Jul 31, 2020 11:12 am Secondly, it is crystal clear that how I dress is different from the societal norm for a cis-gender male so in that sense, I am Nonbinary. Why does that term bother you?
Pdxfashionpioneer wrote: ↑Fri Jul 31, 2020 11:12 amBut some of us don't want to send a message at all. We don't want to be seen as gay or trans. We can be our "genuine selves" no matter what we are wearing. We just want a few more options of what to wear as men.
Did you read the portion of my post that you pulled? I didn't say I was delivering a message; someone else said I might delivering the wrong message and I was asking that person to tell us just what message that might be.
And what makes you think that I want anyone to think I am Gay, Trans-, Bi- or Lesbian for that matter. June was their month. Nonbinary Freedom Day is in July.
Pdxfashionpioneer wrote: ↑Fri Jul 31, 2020 11:12 am By the way, Nonbinary is why the young people stood the term "Queer" on its head and has rebranded it as the miscellaneous category in the diversity rainbow. That's why it's now LGBTQ+.
Misinterpreting is not hate.
You're right, poor choice of cliche on my part.
If you read the thread I started on "Miss-identification" you'll see that I suggested that we ALL take those situations in stride because unless someone's being hostile in the way they misidentify us, they probably just made an honest mistake.
But once men in skirts are "normalized," doesn't that mean that (by definition) skirts would be part of "normal" menswear, and therefore part of the (now larger) box of what is acceptable male behavior? Wouldn't that mean that men in skirts would then be firmly in the "binary" category, as opposed to your "non-binary" category that you are insisting we are all a part of? That's what I am working towards.
Not exactly. Normalized just means something that people aren't surprised to see anymore because they've seen it before.
Ultimately, what the Pride Movement would like to see is everyone's mind get so overloaded with all of the categories of diversity they say, "Enough already! We get it. Everyone's different and should be accepted and respected as they are and treated equally." Shortly afterwards all of the little dividers and labels for Sexual Identity, Sexual Orientation and Gender Identity will get yanked out of the box and the only label we'll be left with is the one outside of the big box that says, "Human Beings."
Pdxfashionpioneer wrote: ↑Fri Jul 31, 2020 11:12 am In the meantime, we're stuck with this alphabet soup and a certain percentage of the population that stigmatizes and marginalizes people who are different. If we're going to put that BS to rest we have to make common cause with the people we can lumped with and stand up together.
Pdxfashionpioneer wrote: ↑Fri Jul 31, 2020 11:12 amThere are very big differences between drag, transgenderism, crossdressing, and (I would argue) men in skirts.
I don't know about very big differences, but differences for sure. Where did I say otherwise.
Pdxfashionpioneer wrote: ↑Fri Jul 31, 2020 11:12 amI may be mad about it, but I'm not for rioting, and don't want to be seen as associated with people engaging in wanton destruction for any reason.
Nor do I. Where did I say otherwise?
I occurs to me that the real issue is that while the first three are purely objective/subjective, gender expression is intersubjective, that is, it exists only in the sense of a group of people "agreeing" on a truth. It's about how you relate to the people around you. So if you want to aim for a particular gender expression you almost by definition have to go for the extreme forms, and you require there to be a binary for it to work.Dust wrote: ↑Thu Aug 06, 2020 2:27 amAnd thus outside the umbrella. They (LGBT community) don't see us as one of them, unless we go into the "femme" type stuff, or are homosexual, or want a female name/non-male pronouns.rode_kater wrote: ↑Wed Aug 05, 2020 10:27 pm I realised I don't think they know where to place us either. There was a presentation at work for pride week to explain the whole trans thing and they had four categories you could be non-binary in:
* sex (which bits)
* gender identity (man/woman)
* homosexual/heterosexual/asexual
* gender expression (masculine/feminine)
If you're a masculine heterosexual man wearing a skirt, by this definition you're not non-binary.
I think I agree. However, I think there is an possibility that they could be educated so they do know we exist and to not say such silly things. If they can learn to include us, or at least recognise us, that would be a win.