skirtcafe.org

Charlie wrote:A butch of crossdressers - is that the collective noun for a number of crossdressers in one place?

Charlie

Only if they're female.

Steve1;
Have you found out why JzG Removed the MIS web page?
I have to tell you my internal conspiracy theorist is suspicious.
Greg

I've tried to find a way to mail JzG on the Wiki site, but can't see any means of doing it. I just thought that a few complaints would help build momentum to get the page put back. Anyone know how we can complain?

Interesting that you're supposed to contact him to restore deletions...How? His self-characterization depicts a person that's very strange IMO. I wonder if the article was considered "vanity spam"? Funny that if you search for the article using MIS, there's still a reference to the article, so a conspiracy may not be the case. There's also still a few men in skirts-type articles, like MSM. There's links in articles like Skirt and Dress (skirts for men) to the deleted piece that Steve spent so much time on.

binx

Apparently, similar articles have been writen in the past. It has been endlessly debated, and admins have deleted them. They consider it a minority subject, not worth more than a side mention in the article "Skirt and dress". There is also a problem of not having enough offline supporting references. I am pretty annoyed at this, since there was no warning or deate before it was deleted. I am discussing it with them. But I don't think the article will come back.

Perhaps the Male Wear section of skirt and dress can be editted/expanded upon, as there many other male skirt-like garments than what's mentioned. I briefly saw the article as being in a state of "creation prevention". So the MSM article was deleted as well? I can't find either in the "deleted" section. Perhaps there is a conspiracy...

binx

There is *always* a conspiracy! It's called "what people think". And what people think about a fairly radical subject can be very polarised. A few of them might even get together and Form Opinions. And the loudest of them will always be the most vociferous opponents, whether they admit it or not.

Despite all of the false reasons given for deleting the article, and the possible prejudicial cover-up, we have a Real Problem aswell - that of providing references to support the text. Wikipedia is not intended to include anything "original", but only what is accepted as common knowledge or has been documented in reliable sources. Mainly, what we have are news articles (which regularly disappear as they age, and are not a very good source), a couple of exhibitions, a couple of books, and a lot of evangelist websites (webby stuff is counted as a "source" only if Google returns 1000s+ hits). That's pretty thin - and not many of those speak about "Men in Skirts" as a movement. Which, for a new movement, is to be expected. So perhaps MIS isn't ready yet for Wikipedia. You all need to write some books and start high-profile societies for social change!

However, I see no problem, say, with an article about "Skirts for men" - since it verifiably exists, as sold by shops like Midas and is a notable type of design like all of the other types of skirts in Category:Skirts.

Except that the loud-shouting admins have already aired their prejudices and deleted previous articles, and I suspect the authors of those articles did us no favours - probably POV-pushing. "Point of View" pushing, is strictly out of order, no matter how strongly you feel about something. All articles have to be factual and written in a simple, informative way. I have tried to keep the POVs out of what I wrote, I think successfully, despite my personal agenda for advocacy. But that isn't enough for the deleting admins who now refuse to think reasonably, and instead rely on the defence "it has already been discussed". remember that these admins are not perfectly wise people, and they have their own, hidden, agendas.

If anyone wants to appeal against the deletion, I'll back you up.

Steve 1 wrote: If anyone wants to appeal against the deletion, I'll back you up.

OK Steve, I'll bite... How does one appeal against a deletion on wikipedia? Is there a central contact email address? What information would be required to support an appeal?

Have fun,


Ian.

JzG has now deleted the discussion we were having on the MIS talk page, and the help that User:Ezeu had been giving us on how to challenge it. (Is JzG's irrational prejudice blatant enough yet? - it was him who deleted the article last year aswell). I am asking Ezeu for his help -
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk: ... _in_skirts

Steve 1 wrote:JzG has now deleted the discussion we were having on the MIS talk page, and the help that User:Ezeu had been giving us on how to challenge it. (Is JzG's irrational prejudice blatant enough yet? - it was him who deleted the article last year aswell). I am asking Ezeu for his help -
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk: ... _in_skirts

Well, I must admit that this little tempest in a teapot has rather severely eroded my confidence in Wikipedia's credibility, or even of its ability to provide a non-biased purely factual account of the world around it. This event with this topic won't garner much notice, but if this sort of chicanery goes on with topics and articles that have a wide and knowledgeable audience then Wikipedia's future won't be terribly bright.

It's common sense to check one's facts when researching something, and to get multiple sources that at least vaguely agree before using them to back up one's own thesis or opinion, but when parties are suppressing even mention of various ideas then that's beyond the pale.

Does Wikipedia have any form of review or editorial/content board (i.e. more than one person)? If so, it may be time to report JzG's actions to said body (if JzG is actually human).

Steve,

Ezeu has replied and recommended that the issue is referred to the Wikipedia deletion review. I guess that I should really leave you to do that initially since you created the original article, had the most vested interest in it and have been following the developments. I will happily lend some additional support if that will be of any help.

Have fun,


Ian.

...Especially if there is something helpful we can do.

It looks as though a discussion needs to be initiated. An additional possible reference:

When traditional lenders said no to kilts, SBA program said yes: Seattle company is now selling thousands of skirts to men.(7(A) Loan Program): An article from: San Diego Business Journal [HTML] (Digital)
by Brad Broberg (Author)

Here's where the MIS article is still around:
http://www.answers.com/topic/men-in-skirts

If we can find publication(s) to use as references to the paragraphs under "Further historical anomalies include:", that should help.

binx

Deletion review initiated. Anyone can participate in this. Please do so!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia: ... _in_skirts

And pass the word to other MIS/MIK forums - I will leave that to people who are members of them.

We have 5 days to debate it and make our votes count. Note that anonymous visitors advancing no argument, or foolish arguments, will be ignored per Wikipedia standard practice. Please make good arguments!

I don't understand the format there on Wiki. Where can 'outsiders' like myself submit comments to the discussion on the deletion of the MIS article?

I'm bloody annoyed about this. I thought it was a *very good article indeed*. Mind you, it could have said a bit more about freestylers . . . .