Gendered Clothing Norms

[Barleymower]

The point you're missing is that sort of behaviour has been completely normalised for girls. Not so, boys.

If we keep parroting the same 'ol same 'ol, all we can expect is the same 'ol. We need to change the thinking.

Do you think i have not noticed that? After 50 years?
Perhaps the point really being missed is this:
Where are the tens of thousands of outspoken men here joining forces and demanding clothing freedom?
If half of the men in America demanded action here, my "same ol, same ol" would be drowned in the noise.

[crfriend]

Perhaps the point really being missed is this:
Where are the tens of thousands of outspoken men here joining forces and demanding clothing freedom?

Men have allowed themselves to become hen-pecked, and have accepted that as the norm. Thus we repeat the same mantra over and over again -- not realising that it injures us in very real ways.

If half of the men in America demanded action here, my "same ol, same ol" would be drowned in the noise.

We need to break the brainwashing that causes men to accede at the first moment to women. We need to stand our ground. I never said that this was going to be an easy hill to take.

[Barleymower]

The activity is very low here. Then strict restrictions are placed on topics. Is skirtcafe itself missing the point when mods say its the same old things being said?

[robehickman]

I suspect its more related to men just not thinking about clothing at all, not considering it to be important.

[Uncle Al]

I suspect its more related to men just not thinking about clothing at all, not considering it to be important.

I agree 100%
IMHO, most men are worried about providing for their family.
Clothing comes into play when/where they work.
They have an basic idea of what goes with what.
Play time is something else.

Uncle Al

[moonshadow]

I suspect its more related to men just not thinking about clothing at all, not considering it to be important.

That's pretty fair. Long before I started wearing skirts, honestly, it's just not something I ever really considered all that much. Sure, there were times when it would cross my mind, but it was nothing I obsessed over, rather more of a passing notion, almost immediately forgotten.

And, I figure a lot of men just don't want to. And that's okay. Sometimes I don't want to wear a skirt... and on those days, I don't.

[Barleymower]

I suspect its more related to men just not thinking about clothing at all, not considering it to be important.

Is that a quote from the male renunciation handbook?
It's that way of life that has lead to empty mens wardobes across the western world.
That and the cast iron belief that anything remotely feminine has no place on a man.

[moonshadow]

That and the cast iron belief that anything remotely feminine has no place on a man.

I still don't think it has to do with femininity on men, rather just that skirts aren't being considered. There are feminine men everywhere, and they express that femininity in many different ways, sometimes without even wearing feminine clothing at all. In fact, I'd argue that some level of femininity is present in all men. Femininity, after all, being basically defined as having or expressing certain attributes commonly associated with the female sex. That in of itself is somewhat arbitrary. After all, it's not like the worlds women are completely homogeneous, just as it is with men. Rather, I would figure that what defines "feminine" might be attributed to the old 80/20 rule, same goes for masculinity.

Femininity might define what could be considered 80% of a given woman's character, and thus 80% of women would exhibit this. Still, within that 80% of women, 20% of their characteristics might be considered masculine. And when defining what exactly is masculinity, we apply the same rule vice versa.

But this isn't a hard fast rule (hell, it's not even a rule, I'm just posting my own opinion on the matter). I consider myself to be more along the line of maybe 70/30, or even closer to 60/40 depending on my given mood [masculine/feminine]. (I would say the spectrum moves day to day with most people given the fluctuations of life in general). People who are close to 50/50 80% of the time might be considered nonbinary gender. There are times when I feel closer to 50/50, and there are still times yet when my femininity might exceed 50%, but that's less than 20% of the time in my overall life, which might explain why I don't consider myself a transgender woman.

I myself probably hug the fence when it comes to "nonbinary". I'm not really a "true enby" to the point where I use they/them pronouns (no, I still use he/him), and I am fully well aware that I am a human male. For the sake of society I consider myself a "man", but often times people vex over how a "man" can behave the way I do. Indeed, it seems to give trans-haters some cognitive dissonance, something I often get a kick out of.

Just my two cents anyway, not really worth much, especially as they're eliminating the penny...

[crfriend]

People who are close to 50/50 80% of the time might be considered nonbinary gender. There are times when I feel closer to 50/50, and there are still times yet when my femininity might exceed 50%, but that's less than 20% of the time in my overall life, which might explain why I don't consider myself a transgender woman.

Look at the world around you, and I think you'll revise the numbers. I think the whole damned thing has tipped over into machismo. Take a look at how many "women" now drive "monster trucks" (likely more than men do). So, it's a crap-shoot at best, and an unwinnable bet at worst.

Ideally, the thing is two intersecting bell-curves with predominance on the "masculine" side or the "feminine" side -- with a fair amount of overlap in the middle. This is a typical statistical distribution. Now, the modern one puts the centre-line not at 50% (masculine/feminine) but close to 20% (masculine/feminine) indicating that "women" are taking over the space once occupied by men -- and it's getting worse, with guys having even less "room" to work with and still be regarded as men. And we're relinquishing ground all the time. This is not healthy or right.

This is very much a men's rights issue now -- and it's being lost or simply thrown away. We need to wake up as a species and fix this problem.

[Seb]

I suspect its more related to men just not thinking about clothing at all, not considering it to be important.

This is probably a big part. The only thought I had to give was to decide on jeans or shorts depending on the temps expected then pick the top one from the respective pile in the wardrobe. Neither was anything I wanted to wear ofc, but the world did'nt know that.

[Barleymower]

I still don't think it has to do with femininity on men, rather just that skirts aren't being considered.

You are right they are not being considered. It's not because men dont care but mostly because they can't have those things. You get used to it. If you asked a boy if he wanted girls stuff he would run a mile. Even though, they are nice. It's because he would be laughed at and be ostracised. Same ol', same ol'.

Femininity might define what could be considered 80% of a given woman's character, and thus 80% of women would exhibit this. Still, within that 80% of women, 20% of their characteristics might be considered masculine. And when defining what exactly is masculinity, we apply the same rule vice versa.

I wish it was not true but it probably is quite close to the truth. I would like to think that gender is a construct but left to their own devices and without interference; girls will be girls and boys will be boys.

But this isn't a hard fast rule (hell, it's not even a rule, I'm just posting my own opinion on the matter). I consider myself to be more along the line of maybe 70/30, or even closer to 60/40 depending on my given mood [masculine/feminine]. (I would say the spectrum moves day to day with most people given the fluctuations of life in general). People who are close to 50/50 80% of the time might be considered nonbinary gender. There are times when I feel closer to 50/50, and there are still times yet when my femininity might exceed 50%, but that's less than 20% of the time in my overall life, which might explain why I don't consider myself a transgender woman.

Neither do I but i can't put a figure to it because it keeps shifting. If i had been born the fairer sex i think I woukd have been happy enough. So that asnwers that question. Doesnt mean I would have had a man in my life though. I'm just not into men. Somehow I have to fulfill that side of my being so that's what I'm doing.

I myself probably hug the fence when it comes to "nonbinary". I'm not really a "true enby" to the point where I use they/them pronouns (no, I still use he/him), and I am fully well aware that I am a human male. For the sake of society I consider myself a "man", but often times people vex over how a "man" can behave the way I do. Indeed, it seems to give trans-haters some cognitive dissonance, something I often get a kick out of.

Just my two cents anyway, not really worth much, especially as they're eliminating the penny...

Maybe one day a army of microbots can go to work and re-engineer the body. Until then I'm all man.
Ive just repaired the skirt I wore on holiday last year. Its lined up for tomorow, cant wait.

[moonshadow]

Look at the world around you, and I think you'll revise the numbers. I think the whole damned thing has tipped over into machismo. Take a look at how many "women" now drive "monster trucks" (likely more than men do). So, it's a crap-shoot at best, and an unwinnable bet at worst.

On this end of I90, (the far end, past the Cascades) there seems to be a pretty healthy balance of masculine/feminine people, I might say that for a good chunk of the populace, the ratio may be closer to 70/30 and vice versa. Frankly, gender roles are just more blurred here on both sides of the equation.

As for the vehicles, I took note of your comment prior to my drive home from my OT call today from Issaquah to Smokey Point, I noticed most vehicles were passenger sedans and small sized SUV's. There is also a pretty large number of Tesla's and other electric vehicles as well as hybrids. I would likely attribute that more to the cost of fuel on the west coast rather than gender. I know I've felt the pinch a few times gassing up our Silverado (so glad I live close to several Indian reservations, easily saving up to $1.00 per gallon)

Ideally, the thing is two intersecting bell-curves with predominance on the "masculine" side or the "feminine" side -- with a fair amount of overlap in the middle. This is a typical statistical distribution. Now, the modern one puts the centre-line not at 50% (masculine/feminine) but close to 20% (masculine/feminine) indicating that "women" are taking over the space once occupied by men -- and it's getting worse, with guys having even less "room" to work with and still be regarded as men. And we're relinquishing ground all the time. This is not healthy or right.

Again, some of this may come down to locale. I myself was kinda surprised as to how "macho" Massachusetts seemed to be, at least in the cracks and crevices. Of course, the "salty New England Man" is practically a cliché. Meanwhile, Seattle is well known for being.... alternative. Suffice to say, there is plenty of feminine energy here, probably more than what could be considered healthy. Ironically, it's pushed my own character more towards masculine territory.

[moonshadow]

But this isn't a hard fast rule (hell, it's not even a rule, I'm just posting my own opinion on the matter). I consider myself to be more along the line of maybe 70/30, or even closer to 60/40 depending on my given mood [masculine/feminine]. (I would say the spectrum moves day to day with most people given the fluctuations of life in general). People who are close to 50/50 80% of the time might be considered nonbinary gender. There are times when I feel closer to 50/50, and there are still times yet when my femininity might exceed 50%, but that's less than 20% of the time in my overall life, which might explain why I don't consider myself a transgender woman.

Neither do I but i can't put a figure to it because it keeps shifting. If i had been born the fairer sex i think I woukd have been happy enough. So that asnwers that question. Doesnt mean I would have had a man in my life though. I'm just not into men. Somehow I have to fulfill that side of my being so that's what I'm doing.

I don't know if I'd actually wish to be born a female. Thankfully, we live in a time and place where men and women alike to explore criss-crossing gender roles until their heart's content.

[Barleymower]

I don't know if I'd actually wish to be born a female. Thankfully, we live in a time and place where men and women alike to explore criss-crossing gender roles until their heart's content.

Don't get me wrong. I don't wish I was born female. What I am saying is if i had been I would probably been ok with it. The question "do you want to be a girl?" Strikes fear into the heart of men for some reason. It's somehow the worst possible question. Ask a women the vice versa question and she'll look at at you with a death stare and say "no" or "hell yes". So i've decided the question holds no fear for me. I am happy with who and what I am. It's a case of "be carefull of what you wish for". Life sucks ether way.

I am not of fan of "gender roles" as a thing. Women have succeeded erasing female gender roles while keeping female gender roles as the mood takes them. They can be rough tough and girly at the same time. People just say that's the kind of women she wants to be. Its time for men to do the same.

[moonshadow]

They can be rough tough and girly at the same time. People just say that's the kind of women she wants to be. Its time for men to do the same

Hear hear!