Will skirts survive!

[Since1982]

Is there a MIS community? I'm not aware of one.

I think SkirtCafe/Skirts4Men are both part of the "ONLINE" MIS/K community.

[crfriend]

If all we are considering is fashion choices, you are probably right. Fashion, though, is also part of an expression of who we think we are, and sometimes who we might wish to be.

I've never stated or intimated otherwise. Of course the way we attire ourselves is a reflection of who we are inside -- and that's the way it should be! That it can sometimes branch to the fanciful is merely frosting on the cake.

I'd be willing to bet though that there are millions of men who are uncomfortable with a purely binary choice of gender - Arnold Schwarzenegger (sp?) on one hand and June Cleaver on the other. I know more than a few TV/TSs who embrace that role because they rejected "traditional" ideas of masculinity and couldn't envision anything else but its polar opposite. The attempt to pass is almost as much an effort to erase their sense of their own masculinity as it is an attempt to appear feminine. And by the way, those aren't the same thing.

I agree that the stereotypical "masculine" figure is way too confining for many folks, and I count myself in that regard -- it's become a positively tiny and stultifying box. The assertion that one needs to somehow "erase their sense of their own masculinity", however, conjures a pathology that I suspect most in this forum do not share.

Is there a MIS community? I'm not aware of one.

In the virtual sense, look about you. You are in one here.

I went through a phase when I considered myself transgendered, then moved on to something else. Some of my old friends did disagree violently with me because I completely rejected their chosen reality. Others thought I was providing some new choices. I'd be careful about speculating about what motivates other "communities."

It's true that I have only my personal perspective and life experiences to base my speculations on, and there are likely pathologies unique to other communities; however, based on what I have personally witnessed, I'll stand by my commentary. I appreciate the caution, and if solid verifiable facts can be brought to the table I'll be more than happy to revise my views.

I think everything you're saying is right on the money Carl, but I think that there is much more at play for many people.

If we can tease out what those other factors are, I suspect we'd all be better off. I, for one, would like to hear stories from "the other side of the fence". Perhaps there's precious little common ground, but understanding never hurts.

[Jack Williams]

Of course they will if i have anything to do with it! Jack.

[sapphire]

I just got home after going to see "Night at the Museum: Battle of the Smithsonian: Hank Azaria play an evil pharaoh who speaks with a lisp. It was a totally hilarious characterization.

Evil Pharaoh recruits Ivan the Terrible, Napoleon and Al Capone to help him in his plan for world domination. All of the cronies are interested in Evil Paraoh's attire and ask about "the dress", to which Evil Pharaoh responds "It's not a dress. It's tunic".

If skirts/dresses have been around for 3,000 years, they certainly have fashion staying power. I doubt that they will go away.

[Inertia]

According to the transvestite chap who used to live in my basement, what he wanted to do was to live as a woman. He wasn't gay, he was heterosexual; but he also wanted people to mistake him for a woman. He had no interest whatsoever in looking like a skirt-wearing man; when he put on a skirt, he also put on female underclothing (and synthetic female figure elements), pantyhose, a blouse, earrings, lipstick, eye makeup, and stiletto-heeled shoes. He didn't want to be a "man in a skirt" at all; his purpose was to look like a woman. He also had no desire to stop his "impersonation" -- it was an integral part of what he was. So, based on this, it doesn't seem likely that outreach to transvestites on the part of the Men In Skirts community would net many additions to said community. The transvestite community appears to have a completely different set of agendas.

Cheers,

Inertia

[PatJ]

Inertia,
That was a thought provoking post! Wow!

While it is true that many transvestites do want to pass as women, there also may be those who choose to pass as women so they can wear skirts etc. without having people take notice of them. (if they appear to be female - no pays any attention to the fact they are wearing skirts.)

It takes a certain amount of boldness for a man to appear in public in a skirt. Many men do not want that much attention so either choose not to wear skirts, or try and pass as female if they desire to wear a skirt.

I am certain that the situation you described in your post is completely valid and does represent a number of men who want to wear "women's clothes". I also believe that there may be just as many men who dress as women because these clothes do not conform with what "society" dictates as suitable for men.

Regardless, I enjoyed your post and it did cause me to sit and think.

[Inertia]

I'm glad you found the post interesting; I found it pretty interesting having a transvestite as a tenant, and trying to wrap my head around his worldview. As for men who would like to wear skirts and choose to disguise themselves as women to do it... it's an interesting thought. Being female, I'm unable to imagine how often that might happen. What do the rest of you guys think? If you felt uncomfortable about wearing a skirt or kilt in public, would you put on women's gear and go out impersonating a female instead?

Cheers,

Inertia

[alexthebird]

As for men who would like to wear skirts and choose to disguise themselves as women to do it... it's an interesting thought. Being female, I'm unable to imagine how often that might happen. What do the rest of you guys think? If you felt uncomfortable about wearing a skirt or kilt in public, would you put on women's gear and go out impersonating a female instead?

Cheers,

Inertia

I think you have it backwards. It isn't that they want to wear skirts so they imitate women to do it -- it's that they are imitating women and wear skirts to do it. And I'd suggest that there are probably three main reasons. One, it's a fetish. Two, they really believe that they are women, they just happen to have the "wrong" body. Three, they are uncomfortable with traditional notions of masculinity (John Wayne, Marlboro Man, football hooligans, etc.) and can't imagine an alternative other than femininity.

[SkirtedViking]

And how about many women I see, wearing clothes and shoes from the male store directly and not even the female versions of the so called man's apparel. Every male stuff has a female version, cannot really say the opposite unfortunately (talking about the situation in our so called Western Civilization). I seek fashion equality, my grandmother did not wear trousers, and flat shoes with laces looking axactly the same as men's oxfords or whatever, ties and sweat shirts and so on were out of the question. Since women gained that right in a rapid way after World War II it is obvious that men have the right to respond and reply and still not wanting to be women, fetishists, trannies and so on...That is what I reckon and is based on facts that anyone can read.

[Skirt Chaser]

Dennis, while there are many things I disagree with about your original post the most pertinent one for the cafe is your idea that women are not as feminine when they are not wearing skirts. The very idea that skirts are for women alone is a large part of what is hampering the acceptance of skirted men. I know guys don't become feminized by getting dressed in a skirt and the same holds true for me as a woman. It seems counterproductive to all people to believe their gender as perceived by an outsider is strengthened or lessened by their clothes.

[Since1982]

I find myself agreeing completely with Skirt Chaser. WOW that's unusual. I've bounced off her so many times I didn't think I'd ever agree with her again, but, what she's said is completely correct. (In my opinion)

[Mipi]

I find myself agreeing completely with Skirt Chaser. WOW that's unusual. I've bounced off her so many times I didn't think I'd ever agree with her again, but, what she's said is completely correct. (In my opinion)

I second that!

[AMM]

... The very idea that skirts are for women alone is a large part of what is hampering the acceptance of skirted men.

I'd put it a bit differently: the idea that skirts are what make women "feminine" = woman-like.

Because if the skirt is something that makes women "feminine", then obviously skirts would make men more "feminine," too.

But I don't think that the resistance to men-in-skirts is as simple as "skirts are for women."

I think it has to do with the whole idea that men must be dominant and women must be subservient. What Dennis is nostalgic for, even if he doesn't recognize it, is a time when women were forced to be subservient and to go to a lot of trouble to be pleasing to men. The "femininity" he talks about is precisely that. This has changed only somewhat. Men are still expected to dominate, and treated as gender traitors if they don't. Putting on a skirt is seen by many as joining the Women's side.

[skirtingtherealissue]

Skirts will survive for as long as individuals exercise their right to wear what they want and not be dictated to by others. I think women are generally stronger in being individuals than men; possibly for the simple reason that they've taken what they want from the wardrobe and felt able to wear it over the last 30 or so years. Most men seem to follow the herd.

I think it has to do with the whole idea that men must be dominant and women must be subservient.

and

Men are still expected to dominate, and treated as gender traitors if they don't. Putting on a skirt is seen by many as joining the Women's side.

I've deliberately not quoted in full, but I think AMM has hit the nail on the head here. I also suspect that this is the reason why many "Alpha males" are homophobic; they see a gay man as being subservient, too.

Ash