Dating Rituals

[Emerald Witch]

Men have often complained to me of the unfairness that society expects them to initiate things with a lady. They've said that it is scary, embarassing, and potentially humiliating if she says no. They've expressed a wish that women would approach them more often, and have fantasized how nice that would be. I would like to talk about this in a bit more depth to understand it better.

In my life I have gone on rather few dates. Probably only about 40 or 50 first dates in the 30 years or so that I've been available. Of those, I believe I initiated probably 95% of them. I was pretty much always the one who first approached the other (physically walking up near them). I was pretty much always the one who first anything to the other. I was pretty much always the one who brought up the conversational topic of the idea of people going out to places, and then when he still didn't get the hint I was still pretty much always the one who finally broke down and just plain asked "Would you like to go out?".

Of those conversations I imagine I've had about a 90% success rate of men saying yes they would love to go out with me. The few exceptions have been when the fella was already in a relationship. I must admit that those few refusals were in fact a bit embarrassing, though only briefly.

For comparison I would like to state that of the five or so men who've ever asked me out, I said yes to three of them. My thought was that a date is nothing more than a way to have fun and hopefully get to know someone, and I saw that as low-risk. The only ones I rejected were so completely skanky that nobody in their right mind would ever have expected me to go out with them. (Like an old smelly wino who asked me out when I was a fresh, vibrant teenager, kind of thing.)

The question it begs is this: if I am attractive enough to get a 90% success rate when I initiate things, why am I not attractive enough to get more than a 5% he-initiates-things rate? When two people are making eyes at each other and there seems to be some mutual admiration and attraction, what in the world is stopping most men in this world from taking that tiny leap of courage and being the first one to risk rejection?

I'm starting to believe that the societal stereotype is a complete myth. I'm starting to wonder if men EVER ask women out. I haven't asked many girlfriends this question, so I honestly don't know whether they are getting plenty of offers and it's only me who doesn't, but my impression is that it isn't so.

I would love to hear stories and responses from all you gentlemen. How often have you gone on first dates? What percentage of rejection vs. success would you estimate you have gotten when you ask women out? How often have women asked you out, and how often have you rejected them?

Just wondering.

[r1g0r]

i've not been single for very long, and when i WAS single i wasn't inclined to look for dating material. so my success rate is drasticaly better than most guys, but i've found that getting to know the girl (even for as little as a couple of hours) made my chances MUCH better.

most guys are either too impatient, or gun-shy. they want it to happen right now, or they've experienced too much rejection to gather the needed courage to approach most girls.

my own success rate was probably somewhere around 95%. go figure.

[Brad]

I find it interesting that women have complained for decades that they had to be patient and hope that some man will ask them out, giving off subtle clues that she is interested and making the man think that asking her out was his idea. Now some are complaining that they have to ask men out. Don't women want to be liberated? Don't men want the added attention?

I have women ask me out occasionally (sometimes not so directly), and I often say no. In fact, I say no more than I say yes. And it's tough to say no to a women because they don't seem to expect it and they take it so personally.

[Sarongman]

As a teenager, I was so painfully shy that gathering up any courage to ask a girl for a date was, to put it blunly, sheer hell and, my lack of confidence was so apparent that rejection was the order of the day. So rigOr's gun shy is very apt. I met my present partner through a dating agency. Yes Em. emancipated (non sequiter that) human beings, of both genders, should be able to have equal rights to asking right out whether the other is interested in a meeting with views to a more intimate relationship. Confidence comes with age, but then, so also does the winding down of the biological clock

[Stevie D]

..... And it's tough to say no to a women because they don't seem to expect it and they take it so personally.

Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned, maybe?
I'm also reminded of the Child Ballad: "Young Hunting". Scary stuff....
http://www.kinglaoghaire.com/site/lyrics/song_674.html

It just goes to show that directly asking someone for sex (regardless of gender) automatically raises very high stakes indeed. It's a risky business.

[Since1982]

When I was in my early teens I used the Sir Walter Raleigh method. I'd see a girl I wanted to know, "accidently" trip into her, brush her off, pick up her books, apologise and say, By the way, are you busy tonight? Usually worked. Of course I'd also already be mooning over her comfy looking skirt. Bad Skip, Bad Bad Bad...By the way, if anyone is thinking about what a masculine looking skirted man looks like, looky here>>

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[Emerald Witch]

... i've found that getting to know the girl (even for as little as a couple of hours) made my chances MUCH better.

my own success rate was probably somewhere around 95%. go figure.

Applause, applause!

I have to wonder... Have you ever tried asking a girl out when there simply wasn't time to get to know her for any length of time first? (e.g. passing someone cute at a store who smiles at you, and maybe who shares a few words)

No man has ever asked me out under such limited circumstances, but again I can report that when I have taken the leap to ask THEM out for a cup of coffee or something I have gotten a very high success rate.

I'm wondering if the time it took to get to know them actually influenced the high success rate, or whether it is just linked to the fact that it took you that long to ASK.

[Emerald Witch]

I find it interesting that women have complained for decades that they had to be patient and hope that some man will ask them out, giving off subtle clues that she is interested and making the man think that asking her out was his idea. Now some are complaining that they have to ask men out. Don't women want to be liberated? Don't men want the added attention?

I have women ask me for sex occasionally (sometimes not so directly), and I often say no. In fact, I say no more than I say yes. And it's tough to say no to a women because they don't seem to expect it and they take it so personally.

Being patient and hoping a man will ask you out is an exhausting and often unproductive trial. However, a woman can easily get a lot of negative feedback for being "forward" if she doesn't behave just that way. Female gender roles are really strict, and girls who ignore them are often called hateful names.

In my case, I'm not unhappy to have the OPTION to ask men out. I'm grateful that I have enough freedom of thought and action that I can do exactly that, and have done for decades. What annoys me is that apparantly I MUST ask men out (contrary to the gender role) if I'm ever to have a date. It doesn't fit with what I've been taught. If I'm brave enough to face conflicting with a gender role to get a date, why aren't men brave enough to face FITTING IN with theirs to get a date?

I'm talking specifically of instances where there is obvious attraction between two people, and the idea is a simple get-to-know-you date. Asking directly for sex seems (again) cloddish to me. I don't blame you for turning down such offers.

[Emerald Witch]

As a teenager, I was so painfully shy that gathering up any courage to ask a girl for a date was, to put it blunly, sheer hell and, my lack of confidence was so apparent that rejection was the order of the day.

Forgive me, but I must pull you back to the specific questions asked in order to make my point. What would you estimate your success/failure rate as? I'm not trying to be nosy, but if you only asked three girls out and all three said no, that's not the same as if you asked 100 girls out and 99 of them said no.

My growing theory is that young boys let their insecurity mold their behavior from an early age. If they ask someone out and get rejected, they never buck up the courage to try asking anyone else, even though their circumstances may change. Obviously, a grown man with a good job and a house and emotional maturity etc. has a lot more to offer than a teenage boy, and I believe would be much more likely to get positive responses. But he may never find out how popular he could be if he never ASKS.

Maybe I was fortunate that the first few times I ever asked anyone out they said yes. I'm sure that gave me the courage to realize I can do it, even though I agree it is scary. If I'd been rejected those first few times, and felt not only that I was unloveable but that I'd BROKEN GENDER RULES and was therefore doubly humiliated, I'm sure I wouldn't have tried much either.

[Sarongman]

Em! you are right, I only asked about four girls out and gave up. They were quite polite and kind but, the rejection was, nevertheless, irreversible. I sometimes wonder if my attendence at an all male high school was part of the equation, as I had less social interaction with girls in general. This insecurity, and fear of rejection, then crossed over into the workplace. Does this answer your question?

[crfriend]

Emmy, it 's very good to read you again; hopefully all is well.

From the perspective of this guy, I can state mixed results all the way 'round. I'm fortunate that of the three relationships I'd hoped would become lasting and serious that one has -- and remains so. I was forced to break off another, and in the remaining one I was "pushed under the bus".

Dating, not that I have any acumen in the matter, having been "off the market" for two decades, was an excruciating experience for me, and I had my head handed to me by way of rejection on a number of occasions which pretty much convinced me I'd remain a bachelor for the rest of my days. I was quietly resigned to that fate in late 1988, and had simply given up even looking. I always wanted something long-lasting and serious; "one night stands" and the like have never interested me: it was also that deadly seriousness that likely killed one relationship and damn near killed another.

I'm happy now, and hopefully it actually will be "'til death do us part", but if if something goes horribly awry and I wind up "on the street" again, I think I'll forego the dating/mating ritual; it's too painful.

[Milfmog]

Hi EM,

As Carl has said, it's good to see you posting again.

Men have often complained to me of the unfairness that society expects them to initiate things with a lady. They've said that it is scary, embarassing, and potentially humiliating if she says no. They've expressed a wish that women would approach them more often, and have fantasized how nice that would be. I would like to talk about this in a bit more depth to understand it better.

OK; asking someone out for the first time certainly is (was) "scary, embarrassing, and potentially humiliating" to me, but then I was always painfully shy as a youngster, so that is hardly a surprise. In addition to being shy, I was also very happy in my own company so there was little incentive to risk being turned down.

In my life I have gone on rather few dates. Probably only about 40 or 50 first dates in the 30 years or so that I've been available.

That's about 37 to 47 more than I went on, but I was only available for about half that time.

Of those, I believe I initiated probably 95% of them.

I initiated two of the three and was accepted both times (A 100% success rate - whoopie! So I quit while I was ahead). Each of those relationships lasted around six or eight months before we just drifted apart but in both cases it took me weeks to get around to asking in the first place and the stress probably shortened my life by several months.

The one I did not initiate was the one I was most afraid of getting a refusal, not because I necessarily expected a refusal but because I did not like the idea of the possibility of acceptance disappearing. The young lady who asked me, all those years ago, is the one I wake up next to every day and the very idea of losing her still brings me out in a cold sweat of fear. Carole tells me I'm the only boy she ever asked out and that she only did so after eighteen months of me not taking the hint!

I did have a couple of others who approached me, but my instinctive reaction was to find a way to quietly and gently decline. In all honesty I'd probably have said no to Carole had she not asked in front of several friends; she's an amazing woman and had read me absolutely correctly on that, she knew that she'd have to put me in a position from which I could not back out.

The question it begs is this: if I am attractive enough to get a 90% success rate when I initiate things, why am I not attractive enough to get more than a 5% he-initiates-things rate? When two people are making eyes at each other and there seems to be some mutual admiration and attraction, what in the world is stopping most men in this world from taking that tiny leap of courage and being the first one to risk rejection?

I can't answer for anyone else but in my case it was fear that stopped me asking, however your question would be fairer if you asked "what in the world is stopping most people in this world from taking that tiny leap of courage and being the first one to risk rejection?"

I'm starting to believe that the societal stereotype is a complete myth. I'm starting to wonder if men EVER ask women out.

Most stereotypes have some basis in fact but it is rare for generalisations to be a good thing. Certainly I have friends who were as quiet and retiring as I was and others who are the complete opposite. The simple truth is that virtually everyone who asked me out was too loud and outgoing for me, so there's another generalisation you ought to consider junking; opposites attract

I would love to hear stories and responses from all you gentlemen.

Oh rats! You only wanted responses from gentlemen, I probably don't qualify

One other thought that occurred to me is that by asking this question here you may receive answers that are significantly skewed; the male folks who make up the bulk of this forum have all found that they are prepared to step over the bounds of societal norms and so are unlikely to be representative of society as a whole.

Have fun,


Ian.

[r1g0r]

... i've found that getting to know the girl (even for as little as a couple of hours) made my chances MUCH better.

my own success rate was probably somewhere around 95%. go figure.

Applause, applause!

I have to wonder... Have you ever tried asking a girl out when there simply wasn't time to get to know her for any length of time first? (e.g. passing someone cute at a store who smiles at you, and maybe who shares a few words)

No man has ever asked me out under such limited circumstances, but again I can report that when I have taken the leap to ask THEM out for a cup of coffee or something I have gotten a very high success rate.

I'm wondering if the time it took to get to know them actually influenced the high success rate, or whether it is just linked to the fact that it took you that long to ASK.

i have no interest in dating somebody i don't know. i know that limited my possibilities, but i need to feel an attraction to a woman in order to want to spend time on an intimate level. no not that kind of intimate, you dirty-minded individuals, the one-on-one kind of intimate.

the few times i've tried investing time/energy/etc on somebody i wasn't familiar with, it was singularly disappointing. even if the familiarity was just from attending school together, i need to have some way to connect.

but then, i am not the typical member of my sex or age group. most of us ARE trouser-snakes .

[Emerald Witch]

Em! you are right, I only asked about four girls out and gave up. They were quite polite and kind but, the rejection was, nevertheless, irreversible. I sometimes wonder if my attendence at an all male high school was part of the equation, as I had less social interaction with girls in general. This insecurity, and fear of rejection, then crossed over into the workplace. Does this answer your question?

Thank you, it does help.

I'm sorry you didn't get that little boost of acceptance early on which might have helped you face a certain percentage of rejection as normal for the dating game. I'm sure lots of lovely ladies were all sighing to themselves over you, wishing you would notice them, but far too shy and "ladylike" to ever do something so forward as ask YOU out if they thought you didn't like them well enough to initiate something. I know -- I've been there too.

[Emerald Witch]

Emmy, it 's very good to read you again; hopefully all is well.

Thanks crfriend! I'm doing fine. It's very nice to chat with you fellas again.

Dating ... was an excruciating experience for me, and I had my head handed to me by way of rejection on a number of occasions which pretty much convinced me I'd remain a bachelor for the rest of my days.

...I'm happy now, and hopefully it actually will be "'til death do us part", but if if something goes horribly awry and I wind up "on the street" again, I think I'll forego the dating/mating ritual; it's too painful.

I'm both sympathetic for your pain, and jealous of your success. I've been married twice now, and have had one other serious relationship. Each one of them have turned out to be horrible failures/mistakes for different reasons. The good thing is that I remain hopeful. I don't keep making the same mistake over and over. Each relationship that ends, no matter how painful and humiliating it feels at the time, gives me new information about what I definitely WANT and DO NOT WANT in my next relationship. I have faith that one day I will finally get the formula right and find someone I can settle down with "till death do us part".