My personal opinion on MUGs

[Since1982]

I believe that IF men wear only skirts/kilts in a masculine way, we have a much better chance of getting skirts/kilts for men accepted as a normal clothing choice than if we promote everything a woman can wear as a normal clothing choice for men to the general public. As long as we look somewhat like a woman without being a crossdresser/tranny I don't believe the general public is ever going to accept us as a normal man in a skirt instead of trousers. Not that in the future we might not progress to wearing lots more as a regular thing, ie: pantyhose, blouses, dresses, high heeled shoes, false eyelashes, long painted nails with long permed hair but I think to be successful we need to walk with baby steps instead of giant hops. Once skirts for men are accepted generally, then migrating to the next step may be in order.

Opinions on what I've proposed?

[Mipi]

I believe you just opened a can with worms (again). This will be very hot .

But, have to admit that I agree with you, that we need small steps. Going to much freestyle doesn't add any positive movement in the eyes of general observers. You see, the major question here is: how much freestyle fashion is OK?

On the other hand, the members of this forum should give each other full freedom and understanding, even if we don't agree on many subjects. Otherwise we are not much different from the rest of the world, besides that we're just pushing the general norms more to the limits.

I think, I keep quiet on the subject from now on.

[cessna152towser]

Yes, this always opens a can of worms on any kilt or skirt forum.
In my own experience a guy wearing a knee length kilt in solid colour or a dark tartan, or a denim skirt, worn with thick ankle length or knee high socks and hiking boots, goes unnoticed on the street.
Its wearing bright colours or longer lengths that turns the heads, society doesn't seem quite ready for that yet, but maybe in another ten years. After all, Utilikilts and men in denim skirts have gradually gained acceptance in the past ten years. Though I certainly would not criticise other forumites who choose to be more adventurous in their wardrobe.

[crfriend]

[Mod hat on]

Oh, brother, here we go again -- another thread I have to watch like a hawk (with reading-glasses) in case it begins to spiral out of control. This topic never fails to ignite passions -- on both sides -- and the sides never seem to come to any common ground.

[Mod hat off.]

Personally, I think that a lot of this can be boiled down to the level of tolerance in anybody's given locale. Some places are more tolerant -- understanding, if you will -- than others; and some less so. In the former, it may be possible to "get away" with a bit more than in the latter. Your mileage will, however, vary in this regard and may well be completely off the mark. I haven't had even a whiff of trouble with any of my skirts for the past couple of years, and as everybody's aware, mine are on the long side (or are minis); I have nothing that falls at the knee because I find that silhouette unflattering -- on me. I also don't own any denim -- and it just doesn't matter!



In short, I think we're just going to need to "agree to disagree" on this "masculine" vs. "feminine" thing and how it applies to our clothing choices. We are not going to "solve" this problem here, because even given the level of rancor over this we're already in substantial agreement on it -- we need to "get out there" and present our opinions to the general public and find out how "main street" responds to it!

[Peter v]

Your reasoning is quite sound, Since 1982, thinking along the lines of men wearing skirts in a manly manner.

Food for thought:
First, the timeline is not known, and may take eons.
But if I read correctly between the lines, you are suggesting that others should conform, so that "your goal" can be achieved. No way. There is no way that any "other" whatever that may be, skirt wearing men will cease to do as they do or conform to the image that you have before you, just so that the greater public may get the idea that men wearing skirts is the narrowly defined image that I can only imagine and do not know precicely what that is, but only you know.

All other men who wear skirts in any other percieved way however will be seen as just that, and not as men wearing skirts in a manly manner, as they are easily recognised as such. I believe that each will be seen and individually categorised as such.
We are like fruit, we are all fruit, but some are apples and some are pears, If you want to push pears as "the fruit of the season" then pears will have to be dominant in the fruit shop, and you will have to advertise to that extent, and the other fruits will make up the rest. Selling the other fruits has no bearing on the position of the pears.

If men wearing skirts in a manly manner wish to be recognised as such, above all others wearing skirts, then they will have to come out in large numbers, demonstrating the fact, and noting that they wish to be seen and recognised as such, all easily recognised as belonging to the same group, ( group name on T shirt or something ) while instructing the public how the manly skirt wearer will look like, that will determine what all the fuss is about. Or the greater public will have no idea of what is going on, as there are so few men out there wearing skirts publically on a daily basis anyway. Don't worry about what others may or may not be wearing, concentrate on the one type of wearer, beginning with "yourself" and hope that there will be a strong following.

In no way are the actions of the other men ( other to be determined by you in this case ) detrimental to anything.
There is no way that men wearing skirts are all going to wear the same skirts, or all wear skirts in a manly way, for who knows how long until the greater public recognises that particular type of wearer. If the manly wearers do their part, there would be no "need", and there is no need. There are definitely no men who will conform to the simpletons who think that fruit is an edible part of one thing instead of a collective name for many edible plant seed pods or "fruits".

Another option is to get all men wearing skirts together, how many is that? Educate. Make a big show of it, line us all up, and documentarise all types and categories and have that put on internet and onto the dictionary. Teach people what a manly wearer is, and what all the other sub catergories of skirt wearers are. That could be done in a month or so. Then we would not "have to wait" for the public to learn for themselves, such as suggested by some, which may take centuries.

The only ones detrimental are the men who fall into the categorie but are not out there in public.

But be warned, I believe that it would be better to be part of a freestyle movement, in a sub category if you like, based on men who wear skirts, rather than risk having a true census and having an outcome that may be different than what you would hope, perhaps more men who are somewhere in between super manly and feminine, ( NOT TRAVI ) leaving the manly skirt wearer somewhere other than as "THE" image of the skirt wearer.

If all manly skirt wearers do their part, then things may go as hoped automatically.

P.s. Who is the public that it is so needed to have acceptance/recognition from, and will anybody ever get acceptance from them or any majority of "the greater public"? Is the part of the public that now recognises men in skirts the only part that will ever be aware or interested in the whole issue? And therefore make further actions superflous?

[AMM]

(Hopefully this won't let any more worms out.)

It seems to me that our biggest issue is that most people in Western societies have never seen a man in a skirt in Real Life, except (a) in a kilt, usually on special occasions, (b) as a joke, or (c) when the man was trying to pass as a woman. Except at events with Contra dancing, I can count on the fingers of one hand how many times I've seen a non-tranny man in a skirt. (That includes seeing South Pacific twice.)

Maybe, rather than hanging around in the Cafe and speculating and squabbling about Which Style Is More Acceptable, we should just get out more in our skirts, kilts, dresses, or whatever we wear, act normally (whatever that is ), and get people used to the idea.

I think the biggest thing that has lead to the acceptance of gays & lesbians in the US over my lifetime has been so many of them being "out" and about; as people learned that they aren't 3-headed space aliens (except in the Hallowe'en parade ), but just people who shop in the supermarket and rake their lawns and worry about their kids getting into college, people have mostly stopped being afraid of them and drifted into a live-and-let-live attitude towards them.

Maybe if we do the same thing, we'll come to be seen as just harmless eccentrics. Actually, it would be a real first step if we came to "be seen" at all.

[SkirtedViking]

Yep,that is how women succeeded-step by step - till they have reached their present full fashion freedom in so called western societiies. That could be also the key for men at least on prima vista. But even now every male should be able to express himself the way he sees it (not talking about crossdressers way of expression in gender deceiving).

[Since1982]

My only response to what everyone's opinions are is: I have no responses. I've read everything and will continue to read responses and not partake.

[Big and Bashful]

Mmmmmppffff! MMMppppFfff! MMMmmppppppfff!

(The written equivalent of keeping my hand over my mouth to stop myself blurting out something which might inflame passions, my own or otherwise!)


P.S. Mmmmmgrrrrmmphh!

P.P.S. If I didn't keep my hand over my mouth I might end up with a foot in it! I don't know how to spell that!

Buggrit! I am now infected with a mild cASE OF SMILIES, Aargh! and inadvertant caps lock key-itis. Best go beddy-bies, more hard thinking to do tomorrow, more radiation coursing.

[Ray]

Fair comment, Skip, but hasnt this point been made ad nauseam before? It's not telling me anything I have not heard before.

PS - Big & Bashful - "Mmmmmgrrrrxxqqqmmphh!" - the xxqqq bit meaning that I agree with 80% but disagree strongly with, oh. lets say, 20%...of what I'm not sure but hey...!

[Inertia]

You know, gentlemen, it strikes me that what the men-in-skirts movement needs is a really rich, cool designer who can dictate to men all over the it's fashionable for men to wear skirts -- of whatever type.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems to me from what I've read that the two most powerful forces that brought women to the point of wearing trousers were (a) World War II, during which it was seen, in the US anyway, as more patriotic to wear slacks instead of skirts and (extravagant, rare) stockings, and especially (b) Yves St. Laurent, who decided that "Women want to wear trousers. To be fashionable, all a woman needs is a pair of trousers, a sweater, and a raincoat." I honestly don't know whether there was really any great desire on the part of women to wear trousers like men did, until they were told by fashion designers that it was The Latest Thing. Maybe men in general won't realize that skirts -- whichever type of skirts -- are a good thing for them to want to wear, until they have a big public fashion face telling them that it's The Latest Thing.

Yeah, I know, men have the reputation of not following fashion... but y'know, in a lot of cases that reputation isn't deserved. What else but fashion-slavery explains that undignified phenomenon amongst many young men, where they wear pants with the crotch down around their knees (which, to my eye as the mother of a son, resembles nothing so much as a kid with a loaded diaper)?

Just a thought.

Cheers, and no intent to inflame anyone's temper or take anyone's side, 'cause to this woman's eye, men in all kinds of MUGs look great!

Inertia

[Since1982]

I've opened a blog, any comments or help would be nice. It's here>> http://meninmugs.blogspot.com/

[Sasquatch]

Clearly one could argue this matter either way. I see it as someone who wants to swim but finds the water colder than he likes. That person has two choices if he/she really wants to swim: 1) wade into the chilly water inch by inch allowing each part of his body to get accustomed to the cold, or 2) go for total immersion and plunge right in.

Skip, you seem to me a wader. I'm guessing you consider skirts on men a groundbreaking movement that warrants a cautious approach, building incrementally awareness of a changing male fashion consciousness that leads to, if not acceptance, at least tolerance. I gather, Skip, you feel modest clothing choices that don't obscure or detract from ones inherent masculine traits will reaffirm one's heterosexual nature, and reassure the onlooker that you are just expressing harmless eccentricity. There may be some merit to this approach; it mimicks, to some extent, tenets of the early Civil Rights movement. In the South, protestors patiently practiced non-violent means of stating their case in an upright and respectful manner. They wore suits and ties, reassuring White America that people of color are also God-fearing, hard-working citizens, bearing Boy Scout values: Trustworthy, Honest, Thrifty, Brave ,Clean, Reverent, etc. That strategy, to varying degrees, clearly calmed frightened whites, especially when juxtaposed against the burning skylines of Detroit, Watts, Harlem, etc.

The problem is that this isn't the Civil Rights movement. This is a few men hoping to enjoy some clothing styles that have heretofore been socially off-limits, and though there may be a social justice issue here, it hardly holds the gravity of someone denied equality under law or basic human rights because of an inalterable condition of birth, like race, gender, ethnicity, sexuality, etc. We just don't rank very high on the scale of human suffering and represent what many may see as self-indulgence or even silliness.

Peter, on the other hand, is Mr. Total Immersion! He is one who simply takes the plunge into the chilly water and gets it over with. He's out there splashing around while others of us are waiting for our knees to get used to the cold. He is far bolder than most of us, who, like Skip and to a lesser extent, me, opt for more traditionally masculine features in our attire, with the emphasis in that statement on traditionally. Though I'm not likely to emulate Peter's style, his philosophy, in the male fashion freedom realm, (which is, after all, a collection of many very unique individual's inner worlds) makes sense. Can any of us consider our own individuality, and still say that Peter's style goes too far?

No two among us will share exactly the same tastes, the same regard for what onlookers might infer about us from the way we dress, the same sense of what is or isn't masculine, or attach similar value to traditionally masculine aspects of one's appearance. Who, then, is to be the arbiter (or as W might phrase it, the "Decider") of what is and isn't appropriately masculine, of how far is too far? If male fashion freedom is ever to be some kind of "movement", then we ought to make darn sure it's about casting off the shackles of trepidation with which society has bound us, and not about inventing new ones.

There was a time when I felt as Skip does, when I thought I needed covering fire from a battalion of skirted men, but I soon learned that, outside of this forum, there is no cavalry coming to the rescue. I will always be an anxious minority of one, so I might as well get used to it. And I no longer care to waste any more of my life complying with another man's idea of what is right or wrong with the way I feel or see things. Basically, I say live and let live. Let each decide what he likes and let him wear it. Let each determine his own comfort level and go for it! And if someone's style seems too effeminate for your own taste, let's just say "It's not for me, but you go, (Girl?)" without adding to the negativity we already face "out there". And mostly, please, let's give this pointless debate a decent burial once and for all!

As the I.G.G. (Immortal Guitar God) Jimi Hendrix put it in If Six Were Nine:

Now if six
turned out to be nine,
I don't mind!
I don't mind!

If all the hippies
cut off all their hair,
I don't care!
I don't care!

'cause I got my own world
to live through,
and I ain't gonna copy you!

Sasq

[Uncle Al]

I've opened a blog, any comments or help would be nice. It's here>> http://meninmugs.blogspot.com/

Skip,

I've bookmarked your Blog.

I hope more people, other than this forum, will read and add
to the blog.

Uncle Al
Duncanville, TX

[Departed Member]

Personal opinions? Phew! Practicality & Comfort are, to me, the modus operandi with which I justify (should I have the need to) the wearing of a skirt rather than tr*users. I have no wish, whatsoever, to adopt a "Look at me, I'm wearing women's clothes - as a man!" persona. I don't regard that prima dona approach as particularly useful, if trying to persuade folk to swop tr*users for skirts, and yes, I am including those of the female gender in that persuasion! Still, batting on the health wicket, I would also endorse (hold-up) stockings, rather than tights, as both practical & comfortable.

And, no, I'm not prepared to argue with anyone over the basis of my personal opinion - it's just that - MY opinion.