Spreading the Word

[mugman]

I'd just like to add, referring to the suit at work situation, that I doubt if many men continue to wear a suit into the evening at home until they go to bed. Whereas a female can, if they feel like it, carry on wearing roughly the same skirted outfit they wore at work, and not feel so imprisoned in formality. That's what we are talking about. Why should we bow to this formality of a working uniform that is so 19th century?

[Since1982]

Yes, it is nice being the "alpha dog" in an economy that's in the toilet and sports a 20% unemployment rate (the real numbers are unknown; those that have fallen through the "safety-net" of unemployment compensation are not counted in the US); it gives one license I suppose. I hope the dogs choke on their golden parachutes on the way down when (IF) the correction comes.

This country (America) has always been an "alpha dog" country. Americans tend to think that is the way we want it. The dream of nearly every American is to work in the marketplace until you've/they've saved enough money to open their own business and become their own alpha dog and make up rules that helps their company make more money than the next guy in the same business. Possibly get rich enough in their business as to be able to hire lots of lower "alpha dogs" and spread out the business until the primary "alpha dog" doesn't even need to come to work and can have a life of ease while the business takes care of everything for him and his family.

There have been many countries that tried to exist without the "alpha dog" mentality, most became something known as "communism" and didn't work very well. I hope we never get that far away from our American roots.

Peter V. I guess the national mentality of the Netherlands is quite different than it is here in America, if you consider employees to be "slaves". We don't consider OUR employees to be anything other than workers trying to get ahead in their jobs, get promotions, make more money and perhaps sooner or later, break away from their employers and become employers of their own.

[AMM]

People in this thread keep talking about a "movement." But a "movement" -- for example, the Civil Rights movement, or the anti-Vietnam Ware movement -- requires that there are huge masses of people that are dissatisfied with things as they are and are ripe for leaders who will give them a direction.

As far as I can tell, most men are not dissatisfied with the fashion choices available to them -- if anything, given a choice, most will choose drabber, less conspicuous, and less impressive-looking clothes. They enjoy -- nay, are even proud of -- looking like they just put on the first thing they dragged out of the drawer. In fact, nowadays, in the US, at least, paying above-average attention to how one looks (unless there's a good reason, like a job interview or getting married) is seen as a sign that you're gay, and most "straight" men in the US are deathly afraid of being thought gay.

The organized advocacy of "WBG"s (women's bifurcated garments) started in the 1840's, with the women's suffrage movements, but didn't get any traction until the beginning of the 20th century, and was considered as unusual and remarkable as men in kilts until WWII. People could advocate all they wanted, but until the masses were ready to change, they got nowhere.

If there were going to be a movement in the direction of skirt-like garments for men, I would expect to see kilt-wearing becoming more widespread long before you'd see men wearing skirts that weren't kilts. After all, kilts are rather firmly fixed in people's minds as "manly," so people won't think the wearer is trying to look like a woman (which most men fear as much as being thought gay.) Unfortunately, kilts are still seen as ethnic costumes, rather than everyday wear. I'm amazed at the number of people who, when they see me in my Utilikilt (khaki twill), ask me if my wearing it means I'm Scottish.

If we were interested in actually changing the preferences of men who don't already wear skirts or kilts, and who don't come to SkirtCafe, we'd have to start by getting to know some of them and trying to find out why they want to wear what they wear. (And not just throwing around assumptions, which is all I've ever seen done here.)

An example of what I'm talking about is Utilikilts, with their "kilts are more masculine than trousers" marketing.


Re: Dress codes at work

I don't think the UK and European posters quite understand the situation in the USA. In the US, in contrast to the UK and Europe, unless you belong to a union (that has a contract with your employer) or are working in a "civil service" (government) job, you are an "at will" employee, which means you can be fired at any time for any reason except for a very, very short list of legally prohibited reasons -- basically, race, religion, and gender. You can be fired for having brown hair, or being too short, or being a registered Democrat, or because the boss had a bad day. And even if their real reason for firing you was illegal, e.g., because you're black, if they come up with excuses for firing you that aren't illegal, you have the burden of proving that the real reason was an illegal reason. Dress codes are definitely legal, including ones that have different requirements for men and women, unless the required dress is so unacceptable for one gender or the other that it effectively excludes one or the other.

[ChrisM]

1: In recognition of the cogency and articulation of mugman's essay, I do hereby nominate him for our CEO and spokesman! (Seriously, actually. Take the reins, and then delegate the real work to the volunteers you can garner from here.)

2: I suggest that The First Day Of Spring is a traditionally logical date for Skirt Day. And it's far enough in the future for now to give us time to put the program together.

[Gus]

1: In recognition of the cogency and articulation of mugman's essay, I do hereby nominate him for our CEO and spokesman! (Seriously, actually. Take the reins, and then delegate the real work to the volunteers you can garner from here.)

I second that

[Since1982]

If That were to happen, I as the employer I would ask, no, demand a reason from the client as to WHY he/she discontinued their clientel. Pointing out that the service is still 100 percent as before, and that I did not and do not tolerate discrimination, and that if the client was disriminative in that way, I would be pleased to see that client leave, but not pleased to see his / her buisness taken else where

And you, Peter V., Silly man...would be out of another of a long line of customers that you no longer wanted, at least until you went broke. At which time you might wish to re-think being so bossy with your ex- paying customers, probably would be too late for those customers, and once your reputation among customers was ruined, you'd have to find a job working for someone else. After getting a "difficult" reputation among others in the same business you "used" to be in, you might have a hard time finding a job doing "anything" having to do with customers. Of course that always leaves plenty of broom and dustpan jobs at minimum wage. Methinks you're living in some sort of dream world very unlike the "real" world.
As far as "demanding" any information from paying customers, there's that dream world of yours again...

[Gus]

I'd just like to add, referring to the suit at work situation, that I doubt if many men continue to wear a suit into the evening at home until they go to bed. Whereas a female can, if they feel like it, carry on wearing roughly the same skirted outfit they wore at work, and not feel so imprisoned in formality.

When I get home in the evening is when the suit definitely does come off and I change into a skirt.

[XP64]

I like the idea, but linking it to charity is essential. Also I think to be a big sucess it should be linked to an established charity like breast cancer or cervical cancer. That way I think it would reach a much wider audience and would be seen as men folk showing empathy towars women. The real sucess would be when more unliberated males find wearing a skirt comfortable and seek wider spread acceptance.
Good luck to who so ever takes it on as it will be a big task, but a worthwhile one.

XP64

[Departed Member]

In theory this is a great idea, especially if linked to a charitable cause, perhaps a charity for men's testicular or prostate cancers.
In practice, this would need a lot of advance publicity if large numbers of men were to be persuaded to take part and if employers were to be made to appreciate the significance of the event.

Now, this I would back 100%! For once, drawing attention to oneself would have positive logic. Bearing in mind how little (compared to other areas cancer strikes!) is actually spent on one of the biggest killers of blokes, it might just persuade a proportion to extend their comfort by wearing skirts more often.

[Milfmog]

In theory this is a great idea, especially if linked to a charitable cause, perhaps a charity for men's testicular or prostate cancers.
In practice, this would need a lot of advance publicity if large numbers of men were to be persuaded to take part and if employers were to be made to appreciate the significance of the event.

Now, this I would back 100%! For once, drawing attention to oneself would have positive logic. Bearing in mind how little (compared to other areas cancer strikes!) is actually spent on one of the biggest killers of blokes, it might just persuade a proportion to extend their comfort by wearing skirts more often.

I'm with Merlin on this. Breast and cervical cancer get far more media attention than the male cancers do and as a consequence they also receive more funding. While I have no desire to reduce funding for breast or cervical cancer screening or treatment, I do think that increasing funds for testicular and prostate cancers is way overdue. I also believe that raising the profile of these two killers can only be a good thing in the fight to stop men dying of ignorance and / or embarrassment.

I also like the idea that men in skirts should be associated with a "guy thing" rather than a "girl thing". Guys "dressed as girls" to support a girly cause is unlikely to be the best way to promote men wearing skits as men.

Have fun,


Ian.

Edited to correct typo / spelling error - Ian

[Gus]

For once, drawing attention to oneself would have positive logic. Bearing in mind how little (compared to other areas cancer strikes!) is actually spent on one of the biggest killers of blokes, it might just persuade a proportion to extend their comfort by wearing skirts more often.

I'm with Merlin on this. Breast and cervical cancer get far more media attention than the male cancers do and as a consequence they also receive more funding. While I have no desire to reduce funding for breast or cervical cancer screening or treatment, I do think that increasing funds for testicular and prostrate cancers is way overdue. I also believe that raising the profile of these two killers can only be a good thing in the fight to stop men dying of ignorance and / or embarrassment.

I also like the idea that men in skirts should be associated with a "guy thing" rather than a "girl thing". Guys "dressed as girls" to support a girly cause is unlikely to be the best way to promote men wearing skits as men.

I like it, I like it! Maybe something like "Look after the boys - wear a skirt" - or maybe not; I'm not very good with snappy slogans

I must say, the idea of wearing a skirt to promote testicular and prostate cancer awareness is full of delightful ironies, and somehow that really appeals to me!

[Since1982]

I'm with Milfmog too, add the cause of Colon cancer to that list. That cancer hits everyone, male or female, we all have a colon. As soon as I read JP's response I thought pretty much the same thing, I'm all for funding women's causes, but men wearing skirts to support women's causes looks a lot like men wearing skirts to BE or LOOK like women. Plenty of men's causes out there for us to support, most are wayyy underfunded compared to Breast Cancer Foundations etc.

Pick a place not too far from me and I'll manage to get there. IF it's in Spring or Fall.

[Big and Bashful]

Fact of the day:
A small point of interest from the course I am on. There are now only two cancers which cannot be cured, they are breast (both male and female) and prostate. By cured I mean that after treatment for either of these you will recieve check-ups for the rest of your life because of the chance of the cancer re-occuring somewhere in the body. All other cancers can be permanently removed / cured permanently as long as they haven't spread.

[JRMILLER]

pros·trate /ˈprɒstreɪt/ Pronunciation Key -
Pronunciation verb, -trat·ed, -trat·ing, adjective
–verb (used with object)
1. to cast (oneself) face down on the ground in humility, submission, or adoration.
2. to lay flat, as on the ground.
3. to throw down level with the ground.
4. to overthrow, overcome, or reduce to helplessness.
5. to reduce to physical weakness or exhaustion.

Ah, tis true, there is no cure once you reach this point!

[Uncle Al]

Fact of the day:
.... There are now only two cancers which cannot be cured, they
are breast (both male and female) and prostrate......

B & B--FYI

It should be spelled Prostate with out the second 'r'.
It's just a common mis-pronounciation of the word.

Uncle Al
Duncanville, TX