Men skirted as men.

[Skirt Chaser]

nobody else in the world seems to think that total ignorance is a reason not to express one's ideas as if they were Received Truth

LOL! I love this sentiment. (And not just because I do look at trash magazines for the worst dressed outfits and tend to think the getup is pretty neat after all.)

[Since1982]

One of the reasons that I do mention a broader possibility in fashion choice for skirted men is just that very fact that some here are very persistent in calling for a very inhibited, limited version of men in skirts, leaving no room for any deviation.

Last I checked, most of the members here, with a few exceptions definitely don't want to be considered "deviates" as that usually has a less than cordial connotation. But you fellows that want the deviate lifestyle, knock yourself out!

As far as the possibility that Pythos was referring to me in his unidentified statement about "being wrong", I don't care what Pythos says, he's a youngster with a fast temper and maybe, just maybe, he'll grow out of it. Maybe he won't, in which case he might have a shorter than normal life. In this life, unfortunately, some people reward fast tempers with numbers...aka 357, 22, 44, 45, 9 etc. I used to have a short fuse and said things that should have remained unsaid, I learned better, got some great advice from someone 50 years older than me and I took it to heart. Maybe someone like that will get to Pythos, one can only hope.

[Gus]

I guess it goes back to the old concept of respect. We do all have different opinions, but we really don't have have the right to tell others that this is how it MUST be. I am very much for the concept of wearing a skirt but have no interest in the more "femme" aspect. But where do you draw the line? Surely even wearing a skirt would be considered femme by most? I'm not qualified to make that decision. Therefore in my mind the line is where each individual decides it to be.

Gus

[miniskirt07]

it still doesnt matter which skirt you buy and wear - it either men style or women style skirt, I have lots of women mini skirt cos of size that fit me prefect (my size is 6 as my waist is 26" but hips is 35" cos Im suffered numbers of health problems like muscle stiff, stomach problem and body inflammation) so I dont mind wearing cool mini skirt with between 50 <> 100 denier opaque tights, it look nicely and dont like men clothes that too boring as it all same type of trousers as i cant use men clothes which is too big for me -- if i buy 30" waist men trousers then it will fall down!! I used women jeans with work top shirt for my work cos of dress code and wear any tights, mini skirt and boots with any top to match when Im at home or holiday -- already went out for walk, many people already seen me many times include cops stopped me and asked me where Im going - didnt say about me in skirt. Just wear and go out anywhere you like but take care -- I live in town not big city (hate live in big city - prefer town or village).

[SkirtedViking]

The fact is that no one must be denied to wear whatever he/she prefers. I do not see the ordinary females in men's style seeking power,it is simply more comfortable for them and they do like themselves looking like that. Man are also called fat and ugly at least in my part of the world And in addition I have never heard a woman while wearing a tie and trousers to be terrified that she is masculine , they perceive it as a fashion style or statement, not as something that impends their femininity. As some other members implied it commences again - the whole issue about fashion equality or braveheart pragmatism. I vote for fashion equality

[Ray]

SkirtedViking, I agree with your sentiments. Your theory is good.

However, if we want to achieve that fashion equality right (even though many men will never use that right), we will get nowhere if we suddenly claim that right - all of it, including heels, skirt suits etc. It takes small steps. Many have shown that denim skirts push boundaries a bit, but not too much. Even with hosiery added to shorts, under trousers etc, that can be okay. We have seen such sights before. Add denim skirt and hosiery, and you are starting to push out a bit. Not all around you will be comfortable. Turn that denim skirt into a floral one, and it gets more challenging.

Of course, I am not going to tell someone who is far advanced down the fashion freedom road to pull back; to deny them their freedom. Nonetheless, I've got experience in going too far, too fast, and it's painful. I've actually got to the same destination with other people by taking it slowly and reassuring them all the way.

[Peter v]

SkirtedViking, I agree with your sentiments. Your theory is good.

However, if we want to achieve that fashion equality right (even though many men will never use that right), we will get nowhere if we suddenly claim that right - all of it, including heels, skirt suits etc. It takes small steps. Many have shown that denim skirts push boundaries a bit, but not too much. Even with hosiery added to shorts, under trousers etc, that can be okay. We have seen such sights before. Add denim skirt and hosiery, and you are starting to push out a bit. Not all around you will be comfortable. Turn that denim skirt into a floral one, and it gets more challenging.

Of course, I am not going to tell someone who is far advanced down the fashion freedom road to pull back; to deny them their freedom. Nonetheless, I've got experience in going too far, too fast, and it's painful. I've actually got to the same destination with other people by taking it slowly and reassuring them all the way.

Ray, there is a difference to having rights and exercising them. Fashion freedom is the true basis on which to build upon.
Asking for people to accept any certain narrowly defined and named (manly) skirt options, ONLY, gets only those who limit themselves to just THAT definition so called acceptance.

You get a drivers licence to drive cars, not a Honda civic, Buic or whatever make and type of car. That doesn't mean that you will drive a Rolls, Porche, Ford or whatever car or muscle car, but you have the right to. You have legeal permission to drive motor vehicles. You can do so without having to ask permission for every ,make and type. You may never drive anything than a VW beetle, type ..... But getting a drivers licence for only a VW Beetle type .... would mean that you would have to go through getting acceptance / licence for every change of make type of motor vehicle. Let us not make the mistake of willingly pleading for a licence to wear only one specific skirt / type of skirt / with any certain type of clothing going with that.

Wearing anything that in any certain situation is not accepted by the people there at that time can be challenging. But that is all for the individual, having nothing to do with any goal for men wanting to break with convention and wear other clothing than pants, in our case that being skirts. Not only a Kilt, or a Denim skirt, or whatever, but any skirt we each see fit to wear. In some places wearing floral skirts may be the thing to wear, in other places wearing anything other than a particular make and type of pants may get you chased by a gang of idiots.

There is also no need to worry that the whole of the US (or else where) by seeing any one or more men in anything other than pants, any specifically defined skirt type, well, you name it, will destroy any hopes of having even one person respecting a man in a skirt. Then you would have to name everybody in the US, and notate what he / she is prepared to accept, then make sure that when any man in a skirt is on the street, he then can take measures using the list to be dressed to the wishes of everybody he meets.
Duh.

To overcome any self inflicted inhibitions and to make it actually easier for people to put any man in a skirt or even dress, or just any other clothing than the usual at this moment in time men's pants, is to teach them about fashion freedom under which skirt wearing is one of the facets, and which most likely just like is the case with denim pants, the most men would wear skirts in a parallel way. Most likely most being skirts in the same fashion sense as denim pants. But there is no restriction to what you "are ""allowed"" to wear before people would start to classify you into a totally other group.

This explanation may be too intellectual for some, but I think that most should be able to follow.

[crfriend]

[.. I]f we want to achieve that fashion equality right (even though many men will never use that right), we will get nowhere if we suddenly claim that right - all of it, including heels, skirt suits etc. It takes small steps.

I believe that statement factual; too much, too fast, invites failure -- at least in the eyes of the casual observer. In order to garner full acceptance of absolute "fashion freedom" (and I've expounded on that notion before) we need to take things in steps so as to not jar the eyes and minds of casual observers -- we need to retain enough visual cues to mark us as men, unmistakably, to avoid confusion.

Many have shown that denim skirts push boundaries a bit, but not too much.

The indicated experience shown here says that a denim skirt on a guy that has a comparable length to short trousers will be "interpreted" as shorts by a casual observer. I suspect we needn't belabour the point.

Hosiery is merely a tool in one's arsenal; one uses it for some things and not for others -- nothing more, nothing less. If one needs to, for whatever reason, one can fall back on the historical record which shows that hose was commonly worn by men in the (distant) past.

Of course, I am not going to tell someone who is far advanced down the fashion freedom road to pull back; to deny them their freedom.

I feel the need to mention that there is NO hierarchy here of being more "advanced" than any other state of being; hierarchies in this regard smack of the T* world and should not be used at SkirtCafe where the stated goal is to gain acceptance for "skirts on guys".

[Bri]

man these talks get old..

[Pythos]

So Bri, why not contribute, and put a little spark in the talks.

People on this site keeping quiet don't help.

People putting others down don't help.

People having an actual discussion help.

[Since1982]

People in this world should wear whatever they want to, wherever they want to. Transvestites, Crossdressers, Transgendereds, men in skirts and kilts, women, should be able to wear whatever articles of clothing they please, whether it's male, female or androgynous. No one here has ever tried to stop men from wearing whatever they please. Most of us here wear more than just skirts from the "other side". Some wear slips, some wear hosiery, some paint their nails and some carry handbags and more. No problem. What I and most of the membership have wanted since day one was for any of us "men in skirts and/or kilts" to look like comfortable MEN at ease with their sexuality and selves. What we've not wanted was for any of us to look like full dress women, so their wouldn't be confusion in the public as to what exactly we were.

I believe that IF we look like women, or like men that want to look mostly like women, the cause of men in skirts and kilts will be irrevocably damaged and sites like this one will go the way of IMFF and other sites of the past. I believe a man in nearly full drag (no fake boobs or wigs) has nothing to do with the cause for "Men in skirts and/or kilts".

I'm saying nothing about anyone in particular here. Just my feelings on our site's future.

[SkirtedViking]

Small steps might be the correct strategy and all I express is that we, men should wear what we like based on our taste, not on the conception whether it is masculine or not . About the "almost full drag" notion I disagree, Marlene Ditriech did very much for the women's fashion freedom and she was how to say - in full drag in the 30-s during the 20th century. She did that in public, remember back then that was considered crossdressing also as it is the present situatuon with males!!! http://www.lib.berkeley.edu/MRC/noir/im ... etr-lg.jpg and another example http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i38/r ... etrich.jpg.

[Peter v]

People in this world should wear whatever they want to, wherever they want to. Transvestites, Crossdressers, Transgendereds, men in skirts and kilts, women, should be able to wear whatever articles of clothing they please, whether it's male, female or androgynous. No one here has ever tried to stop men from wearing whatever they please. Most of us here wear more than just skirts from the "other side". Some wear slips, some wear hosiery, some paint their nails and some carry handbags and more. No problem. What I and most of the membership have wanted since day one was for any of us "men in skirts and/or kilts" to look like comfortable MEN at ease with their sexuality and selves. What we've not wanted was for any of us to look like full dress women, so their wouldn't be confusion in the public as to what exactly we were.

I believe that IF we look like women, or like men that want to look mostly like women, the cause of men in skirts and kilts will be irrevocably damaged and sites like this one will go the way of IMFF and other sites of the past. I believe a man in nearly full drag (no fake boobs or wigs) has nothing to do with the cause for "Men in skirts and/or kilts".

I'm saying nothing about anyone in particular here. Just my feelings on our site's future.

"men in skirts and/or kilts" to look like comfortable MEN at ease with their sexuality and selves.
That is very catching, and I agree fully, but it doesn't exclude any possible variances from an imaginary manly skirted image. It is infact possible to dress even very otherwise than what many would call manly.. and still very clearly be and show your self as a man as described above. Although most men would possibly dress somewhat the same, possibly a bit bland. It is also that very fact that just as men in skirts has been so abusively denied in the past and still is.

There seem to be two conflicting issues, "the public" and "the site". As long as intelligent people are asked for their opinions on men in skirts and or the site, then there should be no problem. The only real problem is most likely not with public opinion but with the individual's inflexible attitude to men in skirts. For some any talk about anything other than only the most manly skirted clothing is uncomprehensible and to that person unacceptable. He would be better off going to a site which is set up to cater for that very narrowly defined style, if you like, of skirted clothing for men. Having said that, is this site such a totalitarian site or is it a site to cater for men in skirts, being MEN in skirts, which in that very essence is self controlling but not narrow or excluding.

Even though there are many things being discussed here, there will never be any substantial deviance from the basic Idea that skirted clothing in essence should be manly, or at least in all options the image seen by any other intelligent person should be that of a man being a man but alternatively dressed ( by the way, in the west, if you don't wear a cowboy hat and boots, you may also be accused of being alternatively dressed, even though you are wearing normal men's clothing, pants and all. )

The only way to belong to the manly skirted man group is to be just that, dress just as you yourself invisage.

Who is "the Public"? There is no "the Public" and general public opinion is what we give them, that being that men in skirts are a reflection of all other men. Not any one particular image. I think what is wrong with the quoted above is the thought, the whole idea, that "the public" is able to see all men in skirts, all at one time, and say O there are some on the far side, or men in skirts are so macho, so it must be that all men are so. There are not groups of skirted men, 100, 1000 maybe all together with writing on their shirts "Skirted Men". Who by doing so will stimulate an image of all men in skirts dressing so, and even if that was the case, that would only be so for all members of that club, group or however you would call that and not for all skirted men. All skirted men are not men from Scotland in kilts either.

I am sure that the public, and i'm talking about those who are able to think, on a normal level, can realise that all people are different, even those all wearing pants! , so why then should all men be dressed in one particular style just to satisfy the general public? The only thing to fear is narrow minded skirted men. To which "group" do you belong if you wear a pair of trousers, and to "which group" do you belong if you wear a skirt? No group. It is up to all MEN as MEN in a skirt to show any interested party ( person ) when seen or asked that he is who he is, just a man ( unless of course you have other intentions, but that is not relative to members of this forum.) Don't make the mistake of pushing a image that is not reality, and by doing so making it very hard for all that are in any way different.

Our forum is essentially only for forum members, and open to vieuwers. NOT the whole public of the US or all inhabitants of the world. If any man is seen in public, by any person, ( don't generalise on how all the public thinks and percieves either!)
skirted, no matter how, he will not in all rational thinking give the Idea that all men in skirts want to look precicely so or want to dress so. I suppose all motorcyclists are Hell's angels, all men in three piece suits are Maffia, all women are whores. People who think so are held unacountable.

People can see for themselves who they have infront of them, and should be "judged" accordingly. You can't convince people who are willingly blind anyway, so forget them.

[Since1982]

Peter, you're nuttier than a fruitcake, I'm not going to talk about you, with you, or to you ever again. To me, you no longer exist.

[alexthebird]

I believe that IF we look like women, or like men that want to look mostly like women

This is the heart of the issue for many. What does it mean to look like a woman (or conversely) a man? In a way, it's like the old Supreme Court definition of pornography - "I can't define it, but I know it when I see it." Well, clothes and presentation are often the same way.

Remember 1963 (probably most of you don't)? The Beatles' hair was considered outrageously long and feminine. To have hair like the Beatles was to be seen as a "fag" or a pansy. I can remember teachers and people on TV and various adults wondering why any red-blooded American male would want to have a Beatle haircut and look like a girl. Now, those haircuts seem utterly normal.

To some, the very act of putting on any skirt other than a kilt is to be seen as wanting to adopt the ways of women. To others, it is merely a fashion choice. To others, it is just a comfortable way to get dressed in the morning. To establish a set of parameters that says "wearing these types of skirts does nothing to affect other people's perceptions of me as a man while these other things make the wearer look like a woman" assumes that we have some control over what other people think a man, or a woman, looks like. Frankly, we don't have any control over that.

Actually, that may be going too far. If we, and people like us, continue to wear what we want in an unselfconscious way so that it no longer appears unusual and weird to see a man wearing a skirt, we will have begun to establish some control over what other people think.

Carl has said it elsewhere. Change is a slow process