Dinner with a friend's friends

[Steve]

I agreed to go out with my friend the other day and meet up with a bunch of her friends for dinner. At the last moment, I decided to put on a skirt (why not?). At dinner, about ten guys and ten girls show up. The percentage of females in skirts: 0%. The percentage of males in skirts: 30%(!!!) That's right, two other guys showed up in skirted garments (one was a Utilikilt), as men.

It was, to use the vernacular, "pretty cool".

[Since1982]

And you probably left with 7 possible converts and 10 possible supporters. Very cool indeed!!

[ChrisM]

That's awesome! Hurrah!

Where did this occur? In what city or country?

Thanks...Chris

[Since1982]

While surfing the web I came upon this tidbit.
"In the city of Wroclaw Poland, officials are exploring a kilt ban after being horrified by groups of drunk Scottish men who lifted their kilts to strangers."
Makes me wonder if the officials ran into some drunk Polish men who dropped their pants to flash folks with their plumbing they'd ban trousers in that town???? Makes about the same amount of sense...none. EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEKKK!!

[Peter v]

I agreed to go out with my friend the other day and meet up with a bunch of her friends for dinner. At the last moment, I decided to put on a skirt (why not?). At dinner, about ten guys and ten girls show up. The percentage of females in skirts: 0%. The percentage of males in skirts: 30%(!!!) That's right, two other guys showed up in skirted garments (one was a Utilikilt), as men.

It was, to use the vernacular, "pretty cool".

Well how about that? What is the chance of that happening? At least if you did not know that those men wore skirts.
Really amazing. I bet that really made your day, and how was the reaction from the rest of the guests? In a level headed society it is no big deal at all, but I imagine that it is new to most.

[Since1982]

but I imagine that it is new to most.

Not as new as you think peter, maybe it's still groundbreaking in the netherlands but not so earth shaking in America. I'm skirted all the time in public, meet new people every day and it's been at least a month since anyone has said anything at all not positive about a man in a skirt, most new people I see just glance my way, smile or frown and say nothing. Here, what is known as "oddball" behaviour is accepted as the norm in the Florida Keys. We have people here with nicknames like "The Iguana Man" or "Parrotman" for the pets crawling all over them all the time. In Las Vegas where I went skirted in 2006 and stayed in the Rio hotel and casino for 10 days, I got no negative and at least 15 positive comments, probably 90% of which were from the fairer sex. The commonest thing they said was to wonder why more men didn't wear a skirt or kilt all the time. They saw nothing unmanly in a man wearing a skirt in a masculine way with strong male "other" clothing. You know what I mean by "other" clothing right? What you'd call a "costume" T-shirts, men's shoes, cowboy hat maybe. Las Vegas IS in the American west. You see lots of cowboy hats there. On both men and women.

[AMM]

...In Las Vegas where I went skirted in 2006 ... for 10 days, ... [t]hey saw nothing unmanly in a man wearing a skirt ...

What makes you would think they would care whether you were "unmanly"? (How much you were likely to tip: that they would care about )

A lot of men seem to worry about whether they themselves will be seen as "unmanly" (maybe all of us men, to some extent), but I haven't noticed that most men spend a lot of time worrying about other men's manliness or lack thereof, except as it reflects on themselves.

I can't help think this worry is a hold-over from our childhood -- especially the 12 years in primary and secondary school, where so many of the prisoners\\\\\\\\\ pupils, in order to distract themselves from their boredom and sense of powerlessness, as well as a number of the guards\\\\\\ teachers, would use any excuse to torment the other prisoners\\\\\\\\ kids. Most boys learn quickly to act just like the other boys, so as not to attract negative attention. And now, 30-40 years later, we still subconsciously expect the locker-room bully to jump out and shove our heads into the toilet if we do anything he could call "girly" or "weird."

Another thing, which I didn't experience, but many men tell me about, is that a lot of fathers (and a few mothers) will go ballistic at any behavior on the part of their sons which seems less than 100% "masculine." You may get free of the locker-room bully, but you never get your dad out of your head.

[Peter v]

...In Las Vegas where I went skirted in 2006 ... for 10 days, ... [t]hey saw nothing unmanly in a man wearing a skirt ...

What makes you would think they would care whether you were "unmanly"? (How much you were likely to tip: that they would care about )

A lot of men seem to worry about whether they themselves will be seen as "unmanly" (maybe all of us men, to some extent), but I haven't noticed that most men spend a lot of time worrying about other men's manliness or lack thereof, except as it reflects on themselves.

I can't help think this worry is a hold-over from our childhood -- especially the 12 years in primary and secondary school, where so many of the prisoners\\\\\\\\\ pupils, in order to distract themselves from their boredom and sense of powerlessness, as well as a number of the guards\\\\\\ teachers, would use any excuse to torment the other prisoners\\\\\\\\ kids. Most boys learn quickly to act just like the other boys, so as not to attract negative attention. And now, 30-40 years later, we still subconsciously expect the locker-room bully to jump out and shove our heads into the toilet if we do anything he could call "girly" or "weird."

Another thing, which I didn't experience, but many men tell me about, is that a lot of fathers (and a few mothers) will go ballistic at any behavior on the part of their sons which seems less than 100% "masculine." You may get free of the locker-room bully, but you never get your dad out of your head.

Thank you
Quite right. Especially as I am skirted, but not in a manly fashion way myself. The fear of ( if there is any inner less manly feeling) being found out, being seen as a non equally macho manly man is abundant. This certainly prevents many men from being their true selves, and in such makes many men's lives difficult to near unlivable.

There is no man or woman, there is an abundance of people varying from "the woman to the man." As the body alone does not determine who you are. Of which many superficially fill the bill to be one or the other. It is then disturbing to sometimes read insinuations that men should be a certain defined "manly" or "macho" type or not be credited to be a man at all. That is very narrow thinking, and if empathised too much very disturbing. GENERALLY speaking, men ""should "" look like men, and women like women, but that "should" must be taken figuratively.

So it would seem that men dressed as a cowboy type, but in a skirt would be acceptable, but would a man in anything else be treated with the same respect, as a person just as all others? I would hope so. ............

By the way, I meant that skirt wearing by men was that well known so as not to be something strange. I did not expect that three men wearing skirts in a relatively small group would be met with such understanding, but it seems very luckily that people in all their diversity are at least in some places accepted, as it should be, and therefore it is not something to react to, at least not in a negative way.

[Skirt Chaser]

Another thing, which I didn't experience, but many men tell me about, is that a lot of fathers (and a few mothers) will go ballistic at any behavior on the part of their sons which seems less than 100% "masculine."

That makes me think of an idea I recently encountered in a book on gender studies by Julia Serano. She writes in Whipping Girl about gender differences being exaggerated by socialization. Can't find the paragraph about it tonight but it was something like there being an overlap of traits that becomes minimized through parents praising or punishing their offspring until they appear more like the desired stereotype of "opposite" sexes. Her concept of differences having both nature and nurture origins makes a lot of sense. It is interesting book in many ways.

[Monster Pete]

Hi all (woo first post here)

Thought I'd put in some input on this. I studied politics in my last years of secondary school, and the nature/nurture idea seems closely related to the ideology of 'second wave feminism' which explores the notion that the male/female divide begins at home. Feminists generally tend to differentiate between sex and gender: sex is predetermined biologically and is essentially unchangeable (ok, so it sort of is, but hey) Gender is produced through social factors such as described in this thread. So it seems the same 'feminist' ideas are present here, but in a 'masculist'(is that even a word) sort of context. A lot of the fear behind men going out wearing a skirt seems to stem from childhood intimidation and fear of breaking the social norms that are drilled into us all.

Monster

[Mipi]

The percentage of females in skirts: 0%.

Sadly, this would be resoult if I take a look into commercial papers for some fashion shops. Can somebody expalain my please, why they are saying that the skirt is ONLY feminine garment ??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

Otherwise VERY interesting story. But I believe, nothing happens just by chance.

Regards to all!

[Gus]

A lot of the fear behind men going out wearing a skirt seems to stem from childhood intimidation and fear of breaking the social norms that are drilled into us all.

I think you have basically hit the nail on the head. Boys wear blue, girls wear pink.

Interestingly enough many gender 'roles' are being challenged today. At one time it was unheard of for a man to stay at home and look after the kids while the wife works but this is becoming more and more commonplace. But I think the greatest resistance to men wearing skirts still stems from the perceived surrendering of one's masculinity - and that's what most men fear. To which I say, so what?. If you are confident in who you are, you can wear what you like.

It doesn't matter what others think, except of course for those closest to you -- and their feelings need to be respected.

[Pythos]

Gads I wish that my male friends or acquaintances would be their own trailblazers and wear styles like my own. Around here I just see people in some color jeans, or crummy fitting dress pants. I very rarely see someone in a skirt male or female.

What skirt types were worn by the others? You said one was in a utilikilt (nice beginner steps), how about yourself? How did the ladies react, along with the others in the place?

[Skirt Chaser]

A lot of the fear behind men going out wearing a skirt seems to stem from childhood intimidation and fear of breaking the social norms that are drilled into us all.

Good to see you in the discussions now, Monster. (I just got happily sidetracked for a bit trying to find out what the Muppet "Animal" from your avatar wears. Still don't know but the research sure is fun!) I'd agree most of us grow up thinking the sky will fall if we break social norms and and a special level of fear is reserved for gender lines. There's a big difference between a man going out jogging in a top hat which is merely overdressed and outdated versus a skirt which probably would get more odd looks and more questions. The saddest part is that the gender roles are more harshly enforced for men. While an "I don't care what others think" attitude can stand in good stead there will be times such as employment where the perceptions of others do matter and a man that steps out of conformity is probably treated harsher than a woman who does so.

[Steve]

What skirt types were worn by the others? You said one was in a utilikilt (nice beginner steps), how about yourself? How did the ladies react, along with the others in the place?

The third guy wore something black and knee-length with black and grey striped socks and a t-shirt and converse (maybe?). I didn't get a very good look at it to be honest. The kilted fellow wore a Dresden Codak (a web comic with wonderful artwork) t-shirt and combat boots.

I looked a lot like crfriend (here: http://www.skirtcafe.org/forums/viewtop ... 067#p85067 ), only dressed down and with different colors with no beard and minus a "few" years. A white T-shirt, medium-dark green ankle-length skirt, and a dark blue vest. It was crfriend that inspired the look, in fact, so thanks to you!

The rest of the group was surprisingly nonchalant. A few positive comments, and a few jokes about the comparative ratios mentioned in the original post, but everyone there knew each other (I was the odd man out), and I take that it was common for the other two to go out so attired on occasion. My only regret: I didn't think at the time to point them to this site