a bible thumper question and answer
a bible thumper question and answer
" Message: No. Just stuff that IS gay. Skirts are for girls, not guys. God designed men and women perfectly, and they are a perfect fit for each other. He hates homosexuality. It is like spitting in the face of the creator of the universe. With clothes, girls DO wear t-shirts and jeans sometimes, and you are right, they were originally guys clothes. But they were adapted and changed, so guys jeans are different from girls jeans. They are not the same. If you really want to wear girl's clothes, make an adaption that works with guys. Make it your own. But don't just wear girls' skirts. And, I honestly didn't even think the skirt looked good. Make your own skirt-type thing that works for guys if you are that desperate. But, I don't call other thinking gay, I call one sex acting like the opposite sex gay. Ever heard of Sodom and Gammorah? Read Genisis 18-20. Hope this helped. I don't think you are gay, but I think you could easily be persived as gay if you wear skirts.?
Even though it's on Yahoo answers. I finally got a comment from a "bible-thumper".. here's my 2nd reply about the bible thumping (first reply was the history of women in jeans):
Because I didn't have enough room to type it in the other message. I have a few gay friends and they would never wear a skirt. There are reasons why, but I'm not going to explain them to you as you probably are too closed-minded to really read and understand them.
I don't care if people (like you) think I'm gay, you seem to not know the first thing about homosexuality and don't care as long as you can hate literally everything you don't understand. I think people like you actually enjoy hating people different than you because you have such a boring life in and of its self. I don't hate anyone. Do I get along with everyone? No, of course not, but that gives me no right to hate someone or to judge them? NO, it doesn't. Get this, if you want to bible thump. God loves everyone, I don't care who they are and what/who they like. You read the bible you should know that. All loving and All knowing mean anything to you? Judge not lest you be judged mean anything to you?
I've read Deuteronomy and know what it says and wholly know it's for another period of time that is long past unless we're all sheep herders, but I know we're not. Yet I don't know about sheep, loads of people are those, follow everyone and refuse to lead anything, or start something new and god forbid "rock the boat".
And you call yourselves Christians?? I'll quote Ghandi "I love your Christ, but I do not love your Christians".
This comment might be harsh to hear and my offend someone, I of course never do any offending on purpose, but I know that not everything will be a pleasant read. The writer of the email very clearly stated how they he she whatever thinks about homosexuality.
Even though it's on Yahoo answers. I finally got a comment from a "bible-thumper".. here's my 2nd reply about the bible thumping (first reply was the history of women in jeans):
Because I didn't have enough room to type it in the other message. I have a few gay friends and they would never wear a skirt. There are reasons why, but I'm not going to explain them to you as you probably are too closed-minded to really read and understand them.
I don't care if people (like you) think I'm gay, you seem to not know the first thing about homosexuality and don't care as long as you can hate literally everything you don't understand. I think people like you actually enjoy hating people different than you because you have such a boring life in and of its self. I don't hate anyone. Do I get along with everyone? No, of course not, but that gives me no right to hate someone or to judge them? NO, it doesn't. Get this, if you want to bible thump. God loves everyone, I don't care who they are and what/who they like. You read the bible you should know that. All loving and All knowing mean anything to you? Judge not lest you be judged mean anything to you?
I've read Deuteronomy and know what it says and wholly know it's for another period of time that is long past unless we're all sheep herders, but I know we're not. Yet I don't know about sheep, loads of people are those, follow everyone and refuse to lead anything, or start something new and god forbid "rock the boat".
And you call yourselves Christians?? I'll quote Ghandi "I love your Christ, but I do not love your Christians".
This comment might be harsh to hear and my offend someone, I of course never do any offending on purpose, but I know that not everything will be a pleasant read. The writer of the email very clearly stated how they he she whatever thinks about homosexuality.
Last edited by Bri on Tue Jun 03, 2008 12:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: a bible thumper question and answer
Mod hat on.
The issue of religious zealots comes up occasionally in this community, mainly because some of them (not all) are overtly hostile to our choices in attire. I'd like to think that we can assert the moral lead in this by taking the high road and not resorting to name calling and other such pettyness -- there is, and can be, no excuse for lowering ourselves to that level. This is not -- repeat not -- a forum about religion; we have community members here of all faiths, and all hammering on these matters does is bruise feelings needlessly.
I'm going to leave the thread open for the time being in the hopes of generating some rational discourse on how to deal with the long-obsoleted Deuteronomy issue. I'd especially like to hear from someone with some real Biblical training on the matter who can either refute or affirm -- in a learned non-judgemental manner -- whether there's any relevance to us or not. If the thread degrades into name-calling and hostility I will not hesitate to lock it down.
Mod hat off.
The issue of religious zealots comes up occasionally in this community, mainly because some of them (not all) are overtly hostile to our choices in attire. I'd like to think that we can assert the moral lead in this by taking the high road and not resorting to name calling and other such pettyness -- there is, and can be, no excuse for lowering ourselves to that level. This is not -- repeat not -- a forum about religion; we have community members here of all faiths, and all hammering on these matters does is bruise feelings needlessly.
I'm going to leave the thread open for the time being in the hopes of generating some rational discourse on how to deal with the long-obsoleted Deuteronomy issue. I'd especially like to hear from someone with some real Biblical training on the matter who can either refute or affirm -- in a learned non-judgemental manner -- whether there's any relevance to us or not. If the thread degrades into name-calling and hostility I will not hesitate to lock it down.
Mod hat off.
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Re: a bible thumper question and answer
Didn't men wear skirt like garments at that time, anyway?Bri wrote:"
I've read Deuteronomy and know what it says ....
Does anyone think that it could be a sin for men to wear trousers?

People at our church certainly seem to like the kilt and sometimes ask why I am not wearing a kilt, if I wear trousers.
Colin.
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Re: a bible thumper question and answer
I wear my kilt to church and we had a new Priest, he came up to me shook my had and asked me what clan was I, I told him the Anderson, I should be bowing down to you then, he went on to tell me that some of my distant clan members were killed for their faith during the reformation in England and were staunch Catholics. I had never heard it before, but in Rome there is a list of people who were killed in that time, he also went on to say that the Anderson tartan is different from most as it has 7 colours were most only have 5.
Now 7 in the Catholic church was the number used on letters to let people know that it was from the church again during the reformation.
As for Deuteronomy I was told that the real meaning was that man was not to impersonate a female, now if a guy wore a kilt no problem as we all know or should know that the true kilt is masculine, and a female kilt is a "tartan skirt", now if the same guy wore a skirt, blouse, pantyhose and makeup that would be impersonation a cross dresser, now if the same guy took off only his pants and put on a skirt and left on his normal male attire I would have to say that has not crossed the boundary more so if he had a beard, well that's the way I see it.
Now 7 in the Catholic church was the number used on letters to let people know that it was from the church again during the reformation.
As for Deuteronomy I was told that the real meaning was that man was not to impersonate a female, now if a guy wore a kilt no problem as we all know or should know that the true kilt is masculine, and a female kilt is a "tartan skirt", now if the same guy wore a skirt, blouse, pantyhose and makeup that would be impersonation a cross dresser, now if the same guy took off only his pants and put on a skirt and left on his normal male attire I would have to say that has not crossed the boundary more so if he had a beard, well that's the way I see it.
Last edited by RichardA on Fri Jun 06, 2008 3:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: a bible thumper question and answer
Ok, let's kill the religions talk on this one since it's getting to be very hot in this thread. I wrote all of that to show how rediculous of a statement they were making using religion as a backing.
If you want to lock this thread, I"m ok with that, or whatever you want.
If you want to lock this thread, I"m ok with that, or whatever you want.
Re: a bible thumper question and answer
Hang on a mo, Bri! It's (so far) not about religion v. religion (which constitutes a 'religious', & thereby 'banned', topic here). But it is an issue that does (and has) deeply affected some folks' viewpoints out of all proportion. Whilst I am a dedicated Wiccan, I grew up in a Society where all about me followed either variations of the Christian faith, or were Catholics. I had misgivings about the whole ethos before I was even 5 years old, but was forced by my parents to 'participate' (although I was the only one to avoid the compulsary taking part in the Nativity play!). Consequently, I read and studied in some depth, the Christian Bible in an effort to clarify (and so justify?) my personal stance.Bri wrote:Ok, let's kill the religions talk on this one since it's getting to be very hot in this thread.
I came to the same conclusion 40+ years ago (over the in-famous Deuteronomy passage) as others here have done. Reading factual history of the period goes to confirm that the whole point was to deter men from dressing as women (to avoid, shall we call it, 'conscription') and women dressing as men (to facilitate entry into the mens' barracks, for, ahem, 'recreational' purposes). Unlike others, though, I feel that perhaps it still has more than a little relevance today, for did not Osama Bin Laden dress as a woman to escape capture? And certainly, blokes in the UK have donned womens' muslim attire to commit robberies! Again, from a history perspective, did the Christians not burn the french woman, Joan, for wearing mens' attire, rather than taking up a sword? The whole point, which appears quite clear to an unbiased, open minded observer, of the Biblical text, is about condemnation of 'masquerade', not individual items of clothing.
Re: a bible thumper question and answer
This is my opinion, I think,
This is very important, as it touches on one of the essential reasons for possible hatred against people who change their outward appearance, to what most are used to be seeing. Those people are possibly more their true selves than they were before, thus being even more true to themselves and to others.
People who change their outward appearance, may look as someone else than who they are.. and may present themselves as someone else... ( uhum don't millions of people do that? In their jobs for example, presenting themselves as more than they actually are, presenting themselves above others? ) AT LEAST ON THE OUTSIDE, VISUALLY,
The real issue is deception intentionally for own betterment, most often at a cost to the other person. ….
Intentional deception is criminal and can also be done when naked, and has NOTHING to do with what clothing you wear. It is the mental condition of the "culprit" in that case which determines that it may be something to be scorned about, and rightly be criticised.
.... which is intentional deception, and by doing so apparently for own profit. Whatever that may be. For even if you deceive somebody into thinking you are a woman, they will certainly find out if it comes to intimate contact. And if not, as long as they don't realise that you are actually a male of birth, if they enjoy your company, with other words the company of another person, what harm is there in that?
It is all about honesty, and not intentionally misleading other people. Outwardly looking as a woman, is not per definition misleading, or dishonest. When / if another person makes contact with you, and there may be any movement towards a more man / woman personal contact, then you should be honest and warn the person, him apparently not being aware, and tell him that you are in fact a man. Otherwise people are with you because they enjoy your company, because of who you are, inwardly, not particularly the way you look/ are dressed, and there is nothing wrong with that.
When we men wear skirts, dresses, etc, and are not made up in such a way (facial) as to be seen as anything other than a man, there is absolutely no suggestion or intent to mislead or deceive others. Any “bible bashing” to that is utter rubbish. Seeing words or actually READING, is a big difference.
Being gender honest can be achieved in nearly all manner of clothing. Being honest is possible, dressed in any manner. And don’t tell me that all men / women dressed conventionally are therefore honest, both gender and just honest.
As it is impossible to write precisely what I mean in a short piece, I may have overlooked something, or made some grammar faults. But I disagree with any reference to which clothing men and women should be wearing according to the bible. It is about the correct way to live, not which clothes we should be wearing.
This is very important, as it touches on one of the essential reasons for possible hatred against people who change their outward appearance, to what most are used to be seeing. Those people are possibly more their true selves than they were before, thus being even more true to themselves and to others.
People who change their outward appearance, may look as someone else than who they are.. and may present themselves as someone else... ( uhum don't millions of people do that? In their jobs for example, presenting themselves as more than they actually are, presenting themselves above others? ) AT LEAST ON THE OUTSIDE, VISUALLY,
The real issue is deception intentionally for own betterment, most often at a cost to the other person. ….
Intentional deception is criminal and can also be done when naked, and has NOTHING to do with what clothing you wear. It is the mental condition of the "culprit" in that case which determines that it may be something to be scorned about, and rightly be criticised.
.... which is intentional deception, and by doing so apparently for own profit. Whatever that may be. For even if you deceive somebody into thinking you are a woman, they will certainly find out if it comes to intimate contact. And if not, as long as they don't realise that you are actually a male of birth, if they enjoy your company, with other words the company of another person, what harm is there in that?
It is all about honesty, and not intentionally misleading other people. Outwardly looking as a woman, is not per definition misleading, or dishonest. When / if another person makes contact with you, and there may be any movement towards a more man / woman personal contact, then you should be honest and warn the person, him apparently not being aware, and tell him that you are in fact a man. Otherwise people are with you because they enjoy your company, because of who you are, inwardly, not particularly the way you look/ are dressed, and there is nothing wrong with that.
When we men wear skirts, dresses, etc, and are not made up in such a way (facial) as to be seen as anything other than a man, there is absolutely no suggestion or intent to mislead or deceive others. Any “bible bashing” to that is utter rubbish. Seeing words or actually READING, is a big difference.
Being gender honest can be achieved in nearly all manner of clothing. Being honest is possible, dressed in any manner. And don’t tell me that all men / women dressed conventionally are therefore honest, both gender and just honest.
As it is impossible to write precisely what I mean in a short piece, I may have overlooked something, or made some grammar faults. But I disagree with any reference to which clothing men and women should be wearing according to the bible. It is about the correct way to live, not which clothes we should be wearing.
A man is the same man in a pair of pants or a skirt. It is only the way people look at him that makes the difference.
Re: a bible thumper question and answer
Unlike selling insurance where it's simply, if the person doesn't want to buy, then walk away.
Convincing people that wearing a skirt isn't bad is a much longer battle, and every little argument that I win or knock sense into people is one more person that might open their minds just a tiny bit. To me it's also a challenge that forces me to get different opinions and build an argument based on them. Not talking to anyone, you get little or no sense of what other people think, and I know most of us know why think they like they do, but without asking and confronting people, you don't pick up on the smaller reasonings behind the big reasons why.
Most Christians claim to be fair and all until you actually point out how unfair and unreasonable their way of thinking is. The quote of Ghandi seemed to work on one, I wander how much more it will work for??
Convincing people that wearing a skirt isn't bad is a much longer battle, and every little argument that I win or knock sense into people is one more person that might open their minds just a tiny bit. To me it's also a challenge that forces me to get different opinions and build an argument based on them. Not talking to anyone, you get little or no sense of what other people think, and I know most of us know why think they like they do, but without asking and confronting people, you don't pick up on the smaller reasonings behind the big reasons why.
Most Christians claim to be fair and all until you actually point out how unfair and unreasonable their way of thinking is. The quote of Ghandi seemed to work on one, I wander how much more it will work for??
Re: a bible thumper question and answer
I'm not expecting a huge skirted march anywhere anytime soon. Just as you said, getting people used to the idea that we exist and we're not freaks or weirdos. Just the average people of this world who enjoy a different style of clothing for our gender.
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Re: a bible thumper question and answer
That wasn't all that long ago -- it was early in 2004, and was the brainchild of Tom Manuel (of "Tom's Cafe" fame, which this forum is descended from) and some of the other pioneers -- a couple of whom still lurk here (and you know who you are). "MSM" was planned to coincide with the "Bravehearts -- Men in Skirts" exhibition at New York City's Metropolitan Museum of Art. It didn't draw a million of course -- damn near nothing can -- but it drew a couple of dozen guys, mostly in kilts, to the Big Apple on a nasty late-winter day for a few-blocks' stroll to the exhibit. (I may have some video of the event stashed away someplace which I pilfered from Tom's Cafe before it went dark.) Tom's gone now, having been claimed by cancer, but his legacy lives on, and I hope he's smiling at us from wherever he may be.Ricky_Reject wrote:I remember for instance that a long ago on this board, somebody wanted to organize sort of a "Million Skirted Men" march.
MSM was a thing of its time, and that time may have passed. To be honest, there was a modest amount of media attention on it, and, as one would expect, it was all stereotypically incorrectly-focussed. The fallout was extreme when it came to blokes who will wear kilts and only kilts and the folks who wanted a broader tableau -- search on Google for "Million Skirted Man March" and you'll find some real vitriol on the matter from the kilt crowd.That is, perhaps, one way of doing it and maybe part of the bigger picture. Personally, I like to work in a more covert fashion (so to speak, hehe) and just set an example by "being out there". However, it has to be said: I'm not really striving for mens skirts as a mainstream phenomena. I won't hold any grudges should the day come, though.
That said, I, too, tend to work behind the scenes, and do not seek the spotlight. I wear my skirts out and about regularly, and am well known for them. I also hope I'm known as a decent, down-to-Earth bloke who's an asset to his community and is perfectly normal in most every way.
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Re: a bible thumper question and answer
I seem to be picking up a deviance in thoughts.
I think that most men don't and aren't lobbying for equality, for men in skirts, but as the above shows, when the opportunity comes, when you talk to others, the chance is there to discuss the skirt wearing thing with the other party.
You could just walk away, in your skirt, whatever, and avoid a discussion. That may look as if you are somewhat sure of your doings, or just the opposite, looking as if you are ashaimed of what you are doing, if the other person thinks that way about men in skirts.
As said, grabbing every opportunity to "set things right" with regards to men in skirts is not only good for other would be skirt wearers, but for number 1 ( yourself) too, as more positive awareness about something that is pretty much unknown or strongly biased by some, can't do any harm. I have the "we" feeling. and try to bring awareness to those I talk to about men who want to wear skirts, only as clothing, no hidden issues. Even if we all did only that, there would be many people learning about something which can easily be put in the wrong spot light.
We don't have to do anything, but can do, if we choose.
I think that most men don't and aren't lobbying for equality, for men in skirts, but as the above shows, when the opportunity comes, when you talk to others, the chance is there to discuss the skirt wearing thing with the other party.
You could just walk away, in your skirt, whatever, and avoid a discussion. That may look as if you are somewhat sure of your doings, or just the opposite, looking as if you are ashaimed of what you are doing, if the other person thinks that way about men in skirts.
As said, grabbing every opportunity to "set things right" with regards to men in skirts is not only good for other would be skirt wearers, but for number 1 ( yourself) too, as more positive awareness about something that is pretty much unknown or strongly biased by some, can't do any harm. I have the "we" feeling. and try to bring awareness to those I talk to about men who want to wear skirts, only as clothing, no hidden issues. Even if we all did only that, there would be many people learning about something which can easily be put in the wrong spot light.
We don't have to do anything, but can do, if we choose.
A man is the same man in a pair of pants or a skirt. It is only the way people look at him that makes the difference.
Re: a bible thumper question and answer
Jesus wore a ...
Modern male clergy often wear a ...
No further questions your honer
ETA: George Fox said (I'm paraphrasing here) that the best way to serve witness to your faith is to live it. Speaking for myself that is my goal - to show that I can be a social, comfortable non-freak in a skirt.
Modern male clergy often wear a ...
No further questions your honer

ETA: George Fox said (I'm paraphrasing here) that the best way to serve witness to your faith is to live it. Speaking for myself that is my goal - to show that I can be a social, comfortable non-freak in a skirt.
Re: a bible thumper question and answer
There is a correlation between low IQ scores and high degree of religious belief. This will most likely render most debates to rather fruitless, as logic reasoning and calculated probability theories tends to simply be omitted.
quote by Ricky in Sweden
--------------------------------------------------------
That about settles it, eh?
Thanks for the insult.
quote by Ricky in Sweden
--------------------------------------------------------
That about settles it, eh?
Thanks for the insult.
Re: a bible thumper question and answer
BrotherTailor wrote:There is a correlation between low IQ scores and high degree of religious belief. This will most likely render most debates to rather fruitless, as logic reasoning and calculated probability theories tends to simply be omitted.
quote by Ricky in Sweden
--------------------------------------------------------
That about settles it, eh?
Thanks for the insult.

peter v.
A man is the same man in a pair of pants or a skirt. It is only the way people look at him that makes the difference.
Re: a bible thumper question and answer
I don't think that religious people or the ones who go to churches are necessarily dumb or have a low IQ. Just the religious fanatics that take a phrase in whatever book they read and twist it to what they think it should be based on their current beliefs of life. There are many religious people who are very open-minded and if they see someone different, they embrace that difference. I just happened to find someone who had the ability to have their mind opened even if only for a short time. To me that speaks heaps about their potential, means they don't just listen and believe but can think critically and analyze info that's given to them. Yet if some have the older or more conservative religious fanatics to tell them what I tell them is rubbish then they'll revert, but if they don't.. They might just think again about what I said and attempt to understand it.
Another thing I thought about when I typed the original message is that these people that we pick out generally are the far left or right side of the scale, not the average like us. They're the worst case people that if we encounter we'll have to use every piece of "ammo" that we have learned to fight their negative thoughts and ideas. Most people aren't going to be like this.
Another thing I thought about when I typed the original message is that these people that we pick out generally are the far left or right side of the scale, not the average like us. They're the worst case people that if we encounter we'll have to use every piece of "ammo" that we have learned to fight their negative thoughts and ideas. Most people aren't going to be like this.