Skirting and Kilting Etiquette

General discussion of skirt and kilt-based fashion for men, and stuff that goes with skirts and kilts.
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crfriend
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Post by crfriend »

Pythos wrote:If we keep hiding for such reasons then we will NEVER get the freedom we desire.
True, but other, sometimes overriding, factors need to be brought in even if they don't necessarily seem to make much rational sense on the surface.

It used to be that the act of "indecent exposure" had to be intentional to be a chargeable offence. In these silly times, and your local neighbourhood may vary, that may no longer apply, especially if there are "children" around. There's also a screaming double-standard of what's "acceptable" for a woman to flash and what's acceptable for a guy -- even if they're wearing equivalent clothes (the skirt pretty much defines the guy as a pervert, by the way, in the eyes of a jury; we know it's wrong, but...) -- so beware.
If some little twit accuses you of flashing, have the little something tell the authorities what you had on beneath the skirt. The answer will most likely be wrong.
That's not a charge I'd like to face -- not one bit. True, the description the little dear gives will likely be wrong, but to prove it will lie with the defendant, and the defendant may not be able to confront the accuser in the matter (this is now precedent in the US, viz. "Fells Acres"). So, it's up to the accused to prove his innocence -- a perfectly charming situation. By the by, what undies did you wear six weeks and two days ago? Can you prove it? In a court of law?

In the case of working on my car, or where potential "views" may be had (e.g. up ladders) I completely agree with Bri's notion of simply taking the easy way out and wearing trousers (or close-fitting shorts).
Last edited by crfriend on Mon May 19, 2008 10:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Peter v »

With regards to descency, isn't it still good practice to go ahead of a woman up the stairs so as not to unintentionally peek up a skirt / dress?

It is impossible to live and hide everything that may be offensive to any one person. With such rules in force, no women would be allowd to even venture on the street, for threat of being accused of solicitating, being a woman. Thus giving men no other choice than to see them, in which attire it may be. :shock:

Everybody should be allowed to dress in any way. As long as genetals are not deliberately shown. People have to learn, which include children, that they should not look at others in such a way as to be sure they can see more than the person's INTENTIONS were. If for some reason, your pants button flys off, and your pants fall to the ground, it is normal for others to recognise the ACT as non intentional, and look the other way. That is what THEY, the OTHERS are compulsary to do. That is respect.

I imagine, that as with many things, it is ultimately the intention behind it what makes something good, criminal, accidental, intentional.

Even klimbing ladders, in a skirt, that should be no problem. Otherwise there will be legislation as to which angle there may be insight to the underside of the skirt, which would apply to BOTH sexes!

The car question does make you think, if skirt clothing, and any other clothing is legal, then it should be usable in nearly all situations. As seeing somebody's underwear is in itself nothing shocking, and should be taught that to children, being able to recognise situations with ""criminal"" intent is a more important subjext to learn. What about women's boobs? ( not nipples) I don't mind seeing them myself, but I think that some legislation seems to have overshot it's intentional protective roll.

This is very important, and any lawers on the forum would be appreciated to collect data on such stupid legislations per state, if they exist, as a warning, but also to try to abolish such outdated regulations.

After all, by just showing jour face you may be accused of um being a woman chaser or ...???? Let us all wear Burkas, men and women and be done with it. :roll: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock:

It may be a thin line, but if you are not intentionally flashing, go ahead. My rule states that when somebody inadvertantly shows something which YOU find unwanted to see, direct your head away, out of respect for that person, it being unintentional. Don't go to a nudist beach and complain about seeing thingamebobs and dodas ...

Wearing no underpants under a skirt may be a dicey matter, BUT IF Kilt wearing is officially accepted, AND wearing nothing under them is recognised as correct attire, then what about that? Especially outside of Scotland. Just as wearing an all covering gown, the Burka is in some countries still allowed.. ( I think that should not be allowed in western countries. Other discussion)

But children play with eachother, what about that? Often girls have very short skirts, then they would be in court every day, straight out of kindergarten, grade school, for indecent exposure, and sollicitating, dressing in such a way as to expose their underpants or suggest the possibility to be able to see .. something.... . Just too stupid for words.

Intention to commit a fellony must be obtained.
Driving a car is not a fellony, willingly steering a car into something / one is. It is in the deliberate action, not in the deed itself, as the driver may have temperorily lost control and UNWILLINGLY had an accident and so on.

Just look at legislation and move the he.. out of the place where they are ridiculously biased.

So again, I would ask anybody who knows the laws well, to put such information regarding such issues, the way we dress, or even members who have insurance and are free to use lawjers services etc, please find out for us how it really is.

One argument is that ( for us ) life, living has to be livable!
A man is the same man in a pair of pants or a skirt. It is only the way people look at him that makes the difference.
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Post by AMM »

Peter v wrote:...Everybody should be allowed to dress in any way...
As I get further and further into geezerdom, I get less and less satisfied with people talking about what "should" be. It's easy to say what "should" be, the real work is in turning "should" into "is." Regardless of their merits, some "shoulds" are beyond any one of us, or any small group of us, to turn into reality, and of the ones which we could, in principle, realize, not all are going to be worth the effort to us.

When it comes to wearing stuff that might get us into trouble, talking about "should" is even less profitable. There are going to be tons of people who disagree with you, and you won't change their minds by arguing with them. The relevant question is: do I wear it or don't I? If you wear a short skirt, you might or might not get into trouble (of any sort.) For that matter, you might get into trouble for wearing a kilt. Or a 3-piece suit. Or a burqa. It comes down to: how much risk are you willing to take when exercising any particular "freedom," especially given that there's some risk no matter what you do.
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Straight skirts

Post by Since1982 »

All my skirts are either straight to mid calf or A-line to mid calf. Bending at the waist with these is never a problem. Being fairly old and having a lot of problems with my legs, if I tried to squat to lift anything I'm afraid I'd never be able to rise, so it's straight or A-line for me. Plus I have a lot of lower back and hip problems and the straight skirt feeling helps that too. Keeps my swayback problem from years in no support trousers from causing pain. I really really really don't miss wearing trousers. :kiltdance: :thewave:
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Re: OT: france

Post by Departed Member »

Peter wrote:
XP64 wrote: I'm new to this forum. As a Scot living in France...
XP64 :D
I guess, the "64" in your username refers the departement pyrénées-atlantique?

Peter
Being British, I assumed your user name indicated you had more than a passing interest in railways!
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toni
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wearing a skirt to fix a car???

Post by toni »

I find it difficult to cross my legs in a skirt or jeans because my legs are so big. I do however agree about how to lift in a skirt, it's strange that a skirt would actually almost force you to lift something with the right form.

Hi Bri,
I find it difficult too with short legs to cross my legs for any great lenght of
time. So I don't care for real short A-line skirts. I find the looser fitting ones you can get away with letthing the skirt fall into the space between your legs.This is also true of lifting things if you bend correctly meaning with your knees bent squat pick the item up and lift with your legs then there should be no problem with flashing anyone but it does requare strenght in your legs.

It would be a good training exercise if I were in retail or somewhere that required frequent lifting. Back on the topic. I try to keep my legs together as much as possible when I'm in jeans or a skirt.

Something else I've also found is that working on a car isn't at all advisable in a skirt. You just have to get into too many awkward positions that would show everyone, everything. I thought about working on my car with the garage door open in a skirt because it was warm outside, but since many kids walk by the house on weekdays at all hours. The thought of being a sick guy that flashes young girls deterred me from the idea. As I know, we have enough crap to defend ourselves and purpose from. I'm not even going to attempt to do something that would take 2 or 3 steps
back.

Okay now why would anyone want to work on a car in a skirt??? Everytime you would be catching it on something,getting it dirty, rolling around on the ground getting caught on things...there is practicality here. I would do it, I wouldn't climb a tree in one either and would only climb a ladder if I had too in a skirt. It just doesn't make any sense to me. However if you don't really care if people see what is under your kilt/skirt the what the heck go for it. I personally wouldn't like my husband out working on a car if there were people walking by.It would just be offensive. I am sure he would like it if I did the same...Himmm or maybe he would be out there with a shot gun for on lookers going by. :oops: :wink:

I think your consideration was right on. Wear a pair of shorts and be able to concentrate on what your doing instead of what your wearing it will probably be safer in the long run.
Love and Light,
Toni
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Post by Pythos »

Aside from Peter V's cogent response, some of the latest posts have made me think. Why bother.

Why bother trying to attain fashion freedom when those who want it don't do anything about it for fear of some little kid accusing them of indecent exposure.

Why don't we just stay in our houses when skirted, and leave those garments to the women when it comes to outside wear.

Should a woman wearing jeans that are so tight they reveal on helluva mooseknuckle (camel toe) be had for lewd dressing? How about girls or women wearing pants so low their but crack is visible?

The only reason the child accusation is so prominent is because when these laws were made some people went absolutely crazy and added things like peeing in a bush a sexual offense worthy of making the perp sign up with megan's law. The other reason is that nobody insisted that that the laws be logical and must be DIRECTLY related to child abuse. Though I find it quite disgusting, I do not think a guy hiding behind a bush, peeing is committing any other offense than rudeness. For that matter I do not find the idea of statutory rape being applied to people having sex who's age are seperated by less than 2 years. But once again no brains were used in the formation of such laws.

I have never really liked being around really young kids, I find them annoying and ill behaved (thank you lousy parents), but these new over bearing laws make me not to be anywhere near them when dressed normally or when in clothing I like.

But I will say this again. If we keep hiding, we will never attain what we want. If we have morons riding power mowers with a loose skirt on, and no underwear, we will never attain what we want. If we have guys walking around looking really stupid, and acting the same when wearing a skirt, we will never attain what we want. Of these three things there is only one we as a group can do something about. That is getting out there in the clothing you like, and stop hiding.
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Post by Milfmog »

Pythos wrote:If we keep hiding, we will never attain what we want.
You'll get no argument from me about that. I wear what I want to when I'm out and about, but I also recognize that there are some situations where a skirt simply does not seem to be the best choice to me; climbing ladders and working under cars come to mind...
Pythos wrote:If we have morons riding power mowers with a loose skirt on, and no underwear, we will never attain what we want.
Again I agree with you, but there is no way to prevent anyone behaving like a moron, so ultimately the very few people who fall into that sort of behaviour can not be prevented from doing it initially. Although (hopefully) they can be stopped from repeat offending, by that time the damage is done. This sort of story will always be picked up by the media so it is sensible that none of us feed that particular monster by dressing inappropriately for the activity we are undertaking. Underwear flashing, while a long way from the lawnmower man's behaviour, is going to get men in skirts bad press so care and discretion are required as noted above.
Pythos wrote:If we have guys walking around looking really stupid, and acting the same when wearing a skirt, we will never attain what we want.
Unfortunately "really stupid" is in the eye of the beholder. For many of the sheeple (great word by the way - really conveys the message) the very idea of a guy in a skirt is stupid so we've already lost that one... But it is not going to stop me; I'll continue to wear clothes of my choosing and if others think it looks stupid and talk to me I'll explain, if they won't talk to me (and most often they won't) then I hope that my actions and behaviours will go some way to answering the "stupid" charge and that eventually they will try a little thought for themselves.

Have fun,


Ian.

(Currently confusing the locals by skirting in Barcelona, two weeks ago it was Sorrento (Italy). Heck, I don't care where I am, I'll still dress for me.)
Do not argue with idiots; they will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.
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Post by Pythos »

Oh heck, house work, or car work in a skirt is just not on my books anywhere.

Also, when I say acting stupid I mean the silly mincing about behavior most guys go into when they put on a skirt (take a look at you tube, you'll see what I mean)

If I had my way, if the person is fit either male of female, I would promote the idea of catsuit coveralls of a thicker lycra for mechanics. Very comfortable, and absolutely no snag points as there are with traditional coveralls. Plus catsuits breath, and are much cooler in temperature to wear than the standard coverall. I know this cause I have experience working on my mustang while wearing such, by my girlfriend's request. Biggest problem was the damage the suit took (it was an old one anyway), the dirt washed right off, and I was working in some real heat, but never overheated.

But seeing as most mechanics lack the physique for such, this will just have to remain a desire. :)
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Post by Kilted_John »

For working on a car, a Utilikilt works pretty well. Especially one with the modesty snaps, for when you have to lay on your back, underneath a car @ the wrecking yard, etc... The pockets do come in handy for holding tools, as well.

-J
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Re: OT: france

Post by Kris »

merlin wrote:
Peter wrote:
XP64 wrote: I'm new to this forum. As a Scot living in France...
XP64 :D
I guess, the "64" in your username refers the departement pyrénées-atlantique?

Peter
Being British, I assumed your user name indicated you had more than a passing interest in railways!
I assumed it meant he used the 64-bit version of Windows XP.
(OK, I guess I'm a bit of a geek!)
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Post by Peter v »

Guys, GUYS!, :wink: We are not to be held accountable for any body, other people, being stupid or doing anything harmful to others. PERIOD. Each individual, despite how he or she is dressed, or travels, etc is individually, not collectively, accountable for his or her actions. Not you for theirs. Behave responsibly, as before in pants, that should be enough. Take care, but be not cramped.

Motorcyclists are not all Hell's angels, auto drivers are not all auto thieves, or criminals on their way to a scene of their next crime. Buying manure, and other substances doesn't make you a bomb maker, wearing pants doesn't make you a woman ( as women very often wear pants ) men being friendly to children are not child abusers.
Men are not all rapists, women are not all whores, flashers wear every soort of clothing and can be anybody. and so on and so on.

Paranoia. Of course as I had stated, make a list of stupid bylaws in your region, and see if they affect you. No need to look problems up.

I know that sometimes one act stays engraved on the cornea, in the mind of some for very long. But that again shows how stupid and short sighted people can be and some will always be. But that must not be a excuse for not doing something which is innocent. We have lived amongst them before wearing skirts, and can go on living amongst them in skirts.

Life is one big risk, you never know what is comming your way, no matter what you do or who you are. Not living in freedom is giving in to all the idiots around us. By actually living as we think is right is the only way to live. Denying yourself the freedom you have is like giving all your money to the first person that calls at your door. He is probably a criminal collecting.

If you can't swim, keep away from water. If you can swim enjoy the water, but that can never exclude the possibility that a swimmer may drown.

As an example, I live alone, and I do not want children in my house, without their parents, like children asking to retrieve their ball, or asking for a drink of water ( children from the neighbours) ithere is no need for them being inside, but I don't want any possibility of any unfounded suggestions of anything "happening" to them. That is just being sensible.

Wearing a skirt on a ladder in your own garden is no problem, doing that on the sidewalk is unwise. Then again, looking up at a person in a skirt is looking ( searching) wantingly for things which are not wantingly being shown. But what about men in kilts? Are they all checked over by police, for not wearing underpants? and if so, then ALL women wearing skirts of any length or type would HAVE TO BE searched for the same!!! Even if somebody would strip on the middle of the street, which is an "offence", the people who do not look the other way are also "guilty" of wantingly taking part in an exhibition, there being no problem, if no one looked......
:roll: :shock: :?

I would also think that you could accuse anybody for thinking dirty things about you, making you feel "dirty"because they happened to look at you, or stared momentarily. :? I am really happy that I at least as far as I know, live where such idiotic laws do not exist. I do not live in the US, but there do seem to be some very strange and dubieus laws and ways of thinking out there, which we europeans don't understand, but which I do understand how they came about, although just as many of you, do not understand are still in force. Those laws will never change unless they are challenged, preferably by lawjers, or by people who are themselves not accused by them.

That is why I asked anybody who is in the know, to make a summary and put them per state on a seperate topic. I think laws get "ammended" from time to time, so there is hope. In the meanwhile just use common sense. And live our lives as true to our selves as possible in the situation.
One thing we MUST not do, is feel guilty of anything wjhen wearing skirts. Everybody is innocent until PROVEN guilty.
A man is the same man in a pair of pants or a skirt. It is only the way people look at him that makes the difference.
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Post by Milfmog »

Pythos wrote:Also, when I say acting stupid I mean the silly mincing about behavior most guys go into when they put on a skirt
"Mincing", "most"? Not in my experience...

I've seen the occasional mincing cross dresser, but have never seen anyone who wanted to be seen as "a guy in a skirt" mincing
Pythos wrote:(take a look at you tube, you'll see what I mean)
Ahhh!!!! realisation dawns... you're not mistaking You Tube for the real world are you? Somehow I don't think a statistician would regard it as a balanced sample of mankind. :D :D :D

As for catsuits on car mechanics, I hope you have better looking mechanics over there than we have here otherwise it will be time to hand out the barf bags :shock:

Don't give up on skirts, just apply some sense to when you wear them so that you don't look "really stupid".

Have fun,


Ian.
Do not argue with idiots; they will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.
Cogito ergo sum - Descartes
Cogito cogito ergo cogito sum - Ambrose Bierce
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working on cars

Post by JRMILLER »

I have worked on cars for quite a while. My outfit of choice is blue coveralls. They offer good protection and are appropriate for the task.

My interest in skirting is not about attempting to wear a skirt in every possible situation. Instead, it's about having a skirt as an option where the option makes sense. Skirts are an addition to my wardrobe, not a replacement for my wardrobe.

So far as catsuits go, we have the same issues here with our mechanics, it would be scary! Apparently, being a mechanic does not automatically keep you fit. This is probably a lack of aerobics and an abundance of donuts!
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Re: working on cars

Post by crfriend »

JRMILLER wrote:My interest in skirting is not about attempting to wear a skirt in every possible situation. Instead, it's about having a skirt as an option where the option makes sense. Skirts are an addition to my wardrobe, not a replacement for my wardrobe.
Ditto. It's the choice that's important.
So far as catsuits go, we have the same issues here with our mechanics, it would be scary! Apparently, being a mechanic does not automatically keep you fit. This is probably a lack of aerobics and an abundance of donuts!
That's an endemic problem in general. I suspect that fewer than 5% of the population could wear a catsuit and pull it off. Praise and kudos go to those who can, but they're not for everybody!

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