Kilt & Tartan made easy

[kiltair]

A most interesting (and free) e-book:


http://www.clan.com/kiltsandtartan/

[Departed Member]

Not bad! My only gripe is that the author seeks to perpetrate the myth that virtually anywhere but "England" is a Celtic enclave! Geniologists now seem to accept that the order, by percentage of UK population runs: 1) Ireland, 2) England, 3) Scotland and, err, 4) Wales! Jesting apart, it seems a pretty fair attempt and covers most of the issues raised on forums, etc. - the main one being, "You don't have to be Scottish to wear a Kilt!"

[Since1982]

I have a question if anyone can answer it, I'd appreciate it. I think I know that Ireland and Wales as well as Scotland have traditional tartan kilts. I have a small bit of Welsh in me, there's a Jones in my great great great grandmothers line on my father's side, a Kelly also on that side, and my Fraser roots as well. I'm fairly well mixed up, with Scottish, Irish, Welsh, English, Danish, French, German and Cherokee blood. A true American MUTT!!8)

My question is, is there a original tartan for England? I have seen Prince Charles in his kilt and wonder if that is a generic Scots tartan or is actually a tartan that is specifically for the Royal line?

[Departed Member]

I have a question if anyone can answer it, I'd appreciate it. I think I know that Ireland and Wales as well as Scotland have traditional tartan kilts.

If you mean the familiar tartan 'pattern's, then this is only (strictly) true of the Scottish Highlands (although most variants of these are 19th/20th Century variations). 'Plain' Kilts spread through Ireland, copied from those worn by Scottish immigrants. Wales has no known historical association with Kilts. The (very welcome) introduction of Kilts (and brand new 'family' tartans!) is a very recent innovation, certainly more of a 21st Century concept than anywhere else (well, perhaps 1990s+!).

My question is, is there a original tartan for England?

Not strictly speaking, but the British Government tartan, "Black Watch", originally, I believe, based on what the Campbells wore, is regarded as 'non-specific' (country-wise, i.e., available to all Brits!), even as far as those overly 'bothered' about so-called 'entitlement' are concerned. Nowadays, companies, football teams, even some English counties have their own 'registered' tartans (as, indeed, could anyone prepared to stump up the cash for a new pattern design and a minimum weave session - not cheap, by any means!).

I have seen Prince Charles in his kilt and wonder if that is a generic Scots tartan or is actually a tartan that is specifically for the Royal line?

Like most (95+%) tartans, the Royal tartan is an 'invented' tartan ("Balmoral"?), and is specifically reserved for the Royal Family. No weaver would dare produce a Kilt in this particular pattern for anyone else - at any price! The fact is that it's not regarded as particularly attractive (apparently!) as tartans go! Plaudits must go to Prince Charles for his continued support of Kilts, unlike his sons who, allegedly, "wouldn't be seen dead wearing one!"

[cessna152towser]

Living in Scotland, I wear my family clan tartan, also tartans of other clans which I am linked to through marriages of my ancestors. I also wear the Black watch which as has been said is a government tartan and I recently retired from a 30 year career in local government. I also wear Royal Air Force tartan, which I was permitted to obtain from their official kiltmaker, in honour of my late father's RAF service in World War II, but it is pleated to the sett rather than the stripe. As I never served in the armed forces I would not be entitled to wear a true military kilt which would be pleated to the stripe. I also wear Teviotdale tartan which is a modern district tartan for the area which I live and being historically Elliot country pays tribute to the Elliot tartan by including the chocolate brown and blue of Elliot in an otherwise generally green kilt. Being one quarter Irish I also wear the County Armagh tartan in honour of my Irish Ancestors. This is a modern tartan from Marton Mills, one of a series covering all of the counties of Ireland. I also wear Spirit of Scotland which is one of these modern tartans with purple through it which anyone can wear - there are other similar ones available such as Pride of Scotland and Honour of Scotland, easily and cheaply available on e-bay. I also wear a kilt in the tartan of the University where I did my degree almost forty years ago. So no shortage of variety - if you can't find a tartan with which you can identify and establish some connection however tenuous, just in case anybody asks you about it, feel free to wear any of the modern fashion tartans, or a single colour kilt, or a camo kilt.

[cessna152towser]

Plaudits must go to Prince Charles for his continued support of Kilts, unlike his sons who, allegedly, "wouldn't be seen dead wearing one!"

There's hope for them yet. When I was their age I wouldn't have been seen dead in a kilt either. I never wore a kilt until my wife persuaded me to get one by which time I was 38. Now at age 56 I wear a kilt most days.

[Bryan]

From what I have read, the Celts in Corwall also had tartans and kilts, although I can't say I've ever knowingly seen anyone wearing one, although I'm sure some do get worn on occassions.

Had a look on the Internet and http://www.cornish-tartans.co.uk do show some examples of the Cornish tartans on their website.

Bryan

[AMM]

Just to muddy the waters a bit with regard to "traditional" tartans:

I talked with some folks from the Scottish Tartans Society when I was last in Scotland (1977), and as I recall, tartans were not "traditionally" associated with clans at all, if by "tradition" you're thinking back to the time when there were clans and clan chiefs.

At that time, tartans were regional, to the extent that specific patterns had any traditional association at all. To the extent that clans used something to identify clan members, such as when going into battle, they wore "plant devices" -- I'm guessing this meant like an identifiable leaf (cf. Maple leaf for Canada) or flower.

The association of tartans (i.e., specific weave patterns) with clans started in the 19th century, as part of the sentimentalization of Scotland in English society by folks such as Sir Walter Scott. By then, the clans as a social organization had been pretty much stamped out, along with almost all of the Highland Scottish culture they were sentimentalizing.

The Black Watch tartan was invented for the Black Watch, an elite regiment (?) of Highland soldiers in the British army, and many later tartans were based on it.

Anyway, this more or less means that as far as being "traditional", Irish, Welsh, and North Carolina tartans have almost as good a claim as any Scottish "clan" tartan.

This is all from memory from 30 years back, but it agrees pretty much with everything I've read since.

I've also read that tartans have existed in a number of cultures, I suppose because it's a fairly obvious way to dress up a plain or twill weave if you already have skeins of yarn dyed different colors.

[sapphire]

Oh Yummy! Then I can design my own tartan! I've been thinking of enrolling in a weaving class.

[Milfmog]

...tartans were regional

This is what I was told when talking to a kilt maker last year. He pointed out that there would typically only be a small number of weavers in an area, so the locals would all buy their cloth from the same place and hence it's hardly surprising if they ended up with similar patterns.

That made sense to me, though I would imagine that there would have been significant colour drift over time due to variations in the quality of the dyes available.

Have fun,


Ian.

[Departed Member]

From what I have read, the Celts in Corwall also had tartans and kilts, although I can't say I've ever knowingly seen anyone wearing one, although I'm sure some do get worn on occassions.

Had a look on the Internet and http://www.cornish-tartans.co.uk do show some examples of the Cornish tartans on their website.

Bryan

Hi Bryan! Thirty or forty years ago, some folk set themselves up as "Cornish Nationalists" - their 'uniform' included an all black Kilt as part of their perceived allegiance to their Celtic heritage. Since then (just as in the old Highland days), 'district' tartans have been 'invented', in the English case, the districts being Counties (such as Cornwall, Devon & Somerset). It became confusing, as I first assumed that the "Devon District Tartan" referred to the area around Alloa, not the West of England! Until I saw 'modern' Kilts in black (although there are 'black' tartans, believe it or not!), I'd never considered buying one (I really like black!). However, when I can afford it, I may well follow cessna152towser's lead on this matter!

[ChristopherJ]

Ahem. The Celts lived mostly in Germany and France and never came to (what is now) the UK - apart from a few who may have settled around East Anglia.

The term 'Celts' in relation to the Irish, Scots and Welsh peoples was first coined many years ago in respect of language. In the 18th Century, it was recognised that the non-English languages of Britain were related to each other (in two groups, in fact). Furthermore, it was recognised - most notably by the Welsh scholar Edward Lhuyd - that there were similarities between those languages and the scant evidence for the languages spoken by the Continental "Celts" as preserved in the Classical sources. Lhuyd classified the British languages using the term "Celtic". If he had chosen another term ("British", say, or "Atlantic") then we would be calling ancient Britons 'Britishers' or 'Atlanticists' or something like that.

It makes my blood boil when I see "Celtic' this and "Celtic" that for sale in the shops. It's all gonads - if you get my meaning.

[Milfmog]

It's all gonads - if you get my meaning.

True, but the gullible will buy gonads...

Have fun,


Ian.