Recent invasion of Evangelical Orthodox Freestylers

[crfriend]

As I stated somewhere in another of many posts last night, in the past men have worn all of these items. Look at our forefathers wearing wigs and makeup. By today's flawed standards, you could make a case that they look feminine.

Allow me to make a few observations here:

1) Not everyone in this forum is from the United States; hence the term "our forefathers" (used to denote the "Founding Fathers" of the United States) might be misconstrued as provincial or, worse, possibly offensive. The world is a big place, and the United States is only one part of it.

2) While it is true that the "Colonials" that begat what is now the US sometimes wore what we might consider "extravagant" dress, it is not "effiminate" dress or even "feminine" in any way. Somehow, I suspect that if you "back-timed" and told old George that he was a crossdresser (and what it meant) he'd give you a righteous thumping.

3) Drop the androgeny notion. Masculinity and Femininity are part and parcel of being male and female, have been for millenia, and that notion is not about to change, no matter how much you might wish it to. Merlin hit it on the nose with the observation of, "you'll just end up looking like a 'quasi'-woman, respected by neither man 'nor woman". Dress the way you like, that's your prerogative. I rather like being respected for who I am, not how I dress (and, like it or not, dress can be distracting).

4) It took forces far more powerful than the Industrial Revolution to put men in the fashion box they're in today. Lots of those reasons have been discussed here and don't need to be rehashed now.

5) Expanding mens' option in modern fashion is not going to be done in one great orgasm. It's going to take time, and it's going to take time because a shift in societal perceptions must occur, and those shifts typically take place at a glacial pace in the absense of very dramatic driving forces (e.g. war). Getting dolled up in your sister's frilly frocks is not going to get you any points -- either with John Q. Public nor, I suspect, many of us here.

Consider that men need to reclaim their fashion freedom. That is the goal that we must achieve. The industrial revolution turned the male into a clone that with a fear of being different. This is where the fear of the "F" word began.

Consider the notion that the afforementioned "Colonials" were in just as much of a box as we're in now; their (formal) clothes were just fancier. Consider also that what we see from portraiture of the time depicts them in their finery, not in their day-to-day clothing which was rather more subdued. Visit your local library and study some books on fashion history and this history of costume for some vivid examples.

[BrotherTailor]

Jamie001,
Do you have any sense of self awareness beyond your outfit? The "embracing of our feminine side", as you phrase it, is so very much more than what we put on in the morning. Have you ever really tried to embrace true femininity. or do you simply get a charge from dressing up as a woman?
Your remarks have been consistently shallow, juvenile, and serve simply to draw attention to your utter lack of comprehension as far as having some grasp of what real masculinity and femininity entails. You are just looking like a fool friend. I would imagine that those who see you all dolled up with your painted toes feel much the same way.
I'd suggest you pursue a career, become a regular volunteer doing some caregiving - something that will take you out of your little bubble world - and mingle with the rest of the world. Life is about getting along with others and building relationships not playing dressup every day.
Okay?

Merlin,

Do you understand that by not advocating total fashion freedom for men you are simply placing men in another box regarding what they can and cannot wear? Why do you think it is necessary to do this? The hardcore freestyler is you friend and we need to work together to achieve fashion freedom for men. Do you believe in equality between men and women? Women already have fashion freedom. There are articles in women's magazines that tell how to masculinize their wardrobes. There are even advertisements for "Boys Underwear for Women". We need articles in GQ magazine that tell us how to add a little "feminine flare" to our dull, drab and boring masculine wardrobe. How about an advertisement like "Girls Knickers for men"? When this occurs, we have reached fashion equality. Until then, men are second-class fashion citizens. I believe that all of these debates are bing fueled by some males fear of their feminine side. We need to embrace our feminine sides in order to become a complete person. Please open you mind and think about the good advice that I am giving you. Don't you want to reclaim the fashion freedom that our forefathers had? BTW, that includes skirts, high heels, wigs, nail polish, and makeup. Together we can make a difference.

I believe that it is important that skirtcafe not only supports the rights to wear skirts, but also the right to wear accessories with that skirt whether those accessories are masculine or feminine by societal definitions. In other words, we need to promote the wearing of skirts with masculine items as well as with fem items such as high heels, nail polish and makeup. .......... Does that make sense?

Count me out, for one! This forum wasn't conceived as a 'total fashion freedom' site, more the freedom for men to wear, and be freely accepted wearing, unbifurcated garments, aka. skirts and Kilts.

Whilst it doesn't particularly bother me what other folk choose to wear, if being seen (by, for instance, my wife!) doing so obstructs my attempts to achieve my fight(?) for others' acceptance of my (conservative) apparel, then I'm strongly opposed to even giving the idea any serious consideration. If you add all of the 'fem' items you propose, then you'll just end up looking like a 'quasi'-woman, respected by neither man 'nor woman, into the bargain.

[Departed Member]

Merlin,

Do you understand that by not advocating total fashion freedom for men you are simply placing men in another box regarding what they can and cannot wear? Why do you think it is necessary to do this? The hardcore freestyler is you friend and we need to work together to achieve fashion freedom for men.

Unfortunately, 99.99+% of blokes couldn't care less about 'total fashion freedom' - seriously! 30 years ago was about the closest men came to achieving that 'fashion 'goal - but there's the rub. It was just - 'fashion', no more, no less - died (as all 'fashions' inevitably do) on its feet.

Women already have fashion freedom. There are articles in women's magazines that tell how to masculinize their wardrobes.

And you call that 'freedom'? Sadly, women have become slaves to 'dull and boring' during my lifetime, thanks to just such articles! As Charlie says, "Jeans are for girls" - and there is no garment more unattractive, unappealing and just plain boring than jeans. Great (physical) work wear, agreed, but that's where they should stay - in the workplace.

We need .......to add a little "feminine flare" to our dull, drab and boring masculine wardrobe. ..... I believe that all of these debates are bing fueled by some males fear of their feminine side. We need to embrace our feminine sides in order to become a complete person.

Err, why? Whilst I respect anyone's right to wear bright colours and flambouyant clothes, if they so wish, I reserve my right not to. It has sweet b*gger all to do with any 'feminine side', I may or may not, possess. I'm already a 'complete' person, thank you kindly. I've done most of the things in my life (and many more!) that I set out to achieve, a damaged spine robbing me of completing the lot! The nearest I suppose I would get to utilising a 'feminine side', would be the occasional 'fancy dress outfit' - except that's reliant on my (complete?) observational 'skills' to 'pull off', successfully.

Don't you want to reclaim the fashion freedom that our forefathers had? BTW, that includes skirts, high heels, wigs, nail polish, and makeup.

Do I want to look like a 'throw-back' from the seventeenth, or eighteenth, century - no, I flaming well do not! Remember, they were as hide-bound then, even more than today, if they were to 'fit in' with society's expectations at that time. Long may they be restricted to history books, say I!

[ChristopherJ]

Jamie001

You have put me right off by the strident tone of your posts and by trying to tell me what I should be thinking and what I should be doing in order to achieve fashion freedom.

I'm not interested in being lectured by anyone. I am perfectly capable of thinking for myself. So I will pass on your posts.

[jamie001]

Brother Bigot,

You are the person that is a fool and a thicky because you don't have an open mind! What gives you the right to judge and call someone a "fool" because of the way that they dress and they have opinions that differ from your narrow views. On most forums, comments like the comment that you made to me below would get you banned permanently.

Moderations, why hasn't this person been banned from this forum?

Unfortunately since you have not been banned from this broad, it appears that the moderators tolerate your childish and biggoted views. You are a crossdresser and simply can't accept that fact! If you don't believe me look up the word "crossdresser" in the Miriam Webster Dictionary. It is hilarious that you have the gaul to insult my fashion choices when you when you are wearing skirts in public. Skirts are a feminine garment. Maybe you should say that to yourself and you will get the idea through your thick head. In societies eyes, you are as much a crossdresser as I am. You should really evaluate your thought process regarding men's fashion freedom because you are a hindrance to the movement. You are just creating another box for men to be placed in with a specific set criteria that fits your homophobic world.

Enough of this. You are not worth wasting bandwidth on....

Jamie001,
Do you have any sense of self awareness beyond your outfit? The "embracing of our feminine side", as you phrase it, is so very much more than what we put on in the morning. Have you ever really tried to embrace true femininity. or do you simply get a charge from dressing up as a woman?
Your remarks have been consistently shallow, juvenile, and serve simply to draw attention to your utter lack of comprehension as far as having some grasp of what real masculinity and femininity entails. You are just looking like a fool friend. I would imagine that those who see you all dolled up with your painted toes feel much the same way.
I'd suggest you pursue a career, become a regular volunteer doing some caregiving - something that will take you out of your little bubble world - and mingle with the rest of the world. Life is about getting along with others and building relationships not playing dressup every day.
Okay?

Merlin,

Do you understand that by not advocating total fashion freedom for men you are simply placing men in another box regarding what they can and cannot wear? Why do you think it is necessary to do this? The hardcore freestyler is you friend and we need to work together to achieve fashion freedom for men. Do you believe in equality between men and women? Women already have fashion freedom. There are articles in women's magazines that tell how to masculinize their wardrobes. There are even advertisements for "Boys Underwear for Women". We need articles in GQ magazine that tell us how to add a little "feminine flare" to our dull, drab and boring masculine wardrobe. How about an advertisement like "Girls Knickers for men"? When this occurs, we have reached fashion equality. Until then, men are second-class fashion citizens. I believe that all of these debates are bing fueled by some males fear of their feminine side. We need to embrace our feminine sides in order to become a complete person. Please open you mind and think about the good advice that I am giving you. Don't you want to reclaim the fashion freedom that our forefathers had? BTW, that includes skirts, high heels, wigs, nail polish, and makeup. Together we can make a difference.

Count me out, for one! This forum wasn't conceived as a 'total fashion freedom' site, more the freedom for men to wear, and be freely accepted wearing, unbifurcated garments, aka. skirts and Kilts.

Whilst it doesn't particularly bother me what other folk choose to wear, if being seen (by, for instance, my wife!) doing so obstructs my attempts to achieve my fight(?) for others' acceptance of my (conservative) apparel, then I'm strongly opposed to even giving the idea any serious consideration. If you add all of the 'fem' items you propose, then you'll just end up looking like a 'quasi'-woman, respected by neither man 'nor woman, into the bargain.

[Sarongman]

Jamie! If you are still on the board, do you consider Saudi men in Galabiyyas, Burmese men demonstrating on the streets in their sarongs, Fijian men in coup courtroom dramas and other pacific island people to be crossdressers? If so there is something not quite right--figure it out!!!

I have been out today in a surfkilt, silk shirt and sandals with a shoulder bag for the essentials. Nobody gives a damn, but if I tried to go further, yes there would be some uncomfortable moments. I am not a crossdresser and deeply resent being told otherwise.

BTW I think you meant "gall" Gaul was a country invaded and colonised by Rome about 2000 years ago, now modern France

[Bob]

Enough here! Please, we do not need every thread turned into a discussion of "you're all crossdressers but can't admit it!" And the names that are flying here --- "fool", "bigot" --- I cannot keep up with the moderation!

Dude, I'm closing this thread.