Clothing And Perception

[JeffB1959]

I live in the inner city where young black men and teens think nothing of wearing their jeans and/or cargo pants with the waistband down to their crotches so their boxers (often plaid) or briefs (often white) show like no one's business. And yet, no one raises so much as an eyebrow at something so ridiculous, save of course for "old heads" like me who find that brand of fashion peculiar to say the least. And yet, if a man were to be seen wearing a kilt or a skirt in public, heads will invariably turn depending on the setting as society at large (at least in the U.S.) will find that far more unusual than boys or men with their insanely low slung pants. Perhaps I'm just naive, but that simply makes no sense to me, or maybe it shows how far we, as a society has to go before people no longer rail about clothing being restricted to one gender or another. Opinions?

[Pythos]

This is also a look associated with a thug, or gangsta. Why is such a look acceptable, but a guy in something other than jeans and t-shirt is not? This has always baffled me.

[Emerald Witch]

The saggy look has existed for, what, about 15 or 20 years now? So I guess it's here to stay.

I've always hated it. It just seems insanely cumbersome. It is another form of intentional disability, much like high-heeled shoes, but without the style. I mean, if your pants are oversized to start with, and overlong, and you wear them sagging below your butt , you end up with huge wodges of fabric scrunched between your ankles and crotch like you had to borrow your father's jeans, and you've just gotten off the toilet. It's just grody.

But young men still insist on doing it, to fit in with their tribe. And who can blame them for that? Everyone needs a group to belong to. Everyone needs to feel important. Everyone needs to feel accepted. If they aren't getting that at home or anywhere else, of COURSE they're going to go to their friends on the street to get it, and if those friends identify themselves by wearing their pants on their HEADS then that's what they'll do!

It's all about defining a group. "We is WE, and you is THEY, and WE is better than YOU!" Anyone who wears the right clothes, knows the right handshake, speaks with the right accent, drives the right car, has the right skin tone, goes to the right church, whatever the group definition may be... as long as we can define US as different than YOU GUYS, then we can tell ourselves that we are better.

These are people who define their safety, their power base, by the security of defending their walls against those who would try to attack them from outside. They operate from fear. They quickly banish people who don't conform properly to the rules of the group.

My personal philosophy is that the more you can break down those walls of difference and expand your definition of who you include in your "WE", the greater your power base. I like to find as much common ground as possible, and dissolve fear rather than operate from a foundation of fear.

It's much more powerful, but slower, and counter-intuitive at first.

I started learning these techniques from Gandhi, and I believe it's what Jesus was really getting on about, and there have been others.

I really hope and want to believe that we are at the threshold of the age of enlightenment when such brotherhood will be possible as these great minds have envisioned. Their dreams went such a long way, even without modern communications! Now, with technology being what it is, I hope that with not much more struggle the world will evolve into the Heaven they hoped for.

Or is all that to esoteric for a post about gansta pants?

[JeffB1959]

Emerald Witch: Quite esoteric indeed! Not something I'd associate with a discussion on gangsta pants. Heh! But yeah, you did bring up a goodly number of points, most notably the need to belong to something, to follow trends and stuff like that, it's just that it looks dopey. I've lost track of how many times I've seen these knuckleheads tromping down the street, hiking up their pants every now and then like, well, a skirt, not to mention how they have to reach deep just to get something out of their pockets. And they invariably think they look cool as all hell. Sheesh!

[Kilty]

Being a 'brotha' I think the look is okay... It's not so much a gangsta thing. I see lots of white boys bustin' the same look. Except they don't exactly carry it out well when it's tracksuit bottoms...

I think in my part of London, any guy, being black or white would come in for a lot of stick if he wore a skirt in public. I was thinking of wearing a kilt once, but it's not so much about "fitting in" as about not getting beaten up... TBH, shorts work well for me... After reading some of these posts, things seem to be heading down the TV/TS route, and I don't feel too comfortable with the whole men in skirts and tights and heels. If the fashion's supposed to take off then it has to look more casual, a bit how Veletron in IMFF used to dress...

[Emerald Witch]

I don't feel too comfortable with the whole men in skirts and tights and heels. If the fashion's supposed to take off then it has to look more casual, a bit how Veletron in IMFF used to dress...

I'm sorry, I don't get those references. Who is Veletron? What is IMFF?

FWIW I don't think a guy HAS to wear tights and heels (or any thing else in particular) if he doesn't want to. I just think he should have the freedom to if he DOES want to.

But oh, HONEY, I've just got to say your pictures look sooo sexy! WOW, what great arms you've got!

And I like the length of your denim skirt in the first picture. It's modest enough that I don't go absolutely insane with wondering, and I can actually think about YOU. And it flatters your legs very well. Which are also quite handsome.

[Kilty]

(blushes), thanks, Em! but the pics are of Veletron, who ran IMFF, which was a site similar to this. It ran for a couple of years, but due to spammers, and lack of moderators had to close. I saw one poster, called Jermaine hounded out of that forum by another member called 1982 or something who didn't feel comfortable with black guys in skirts...

I'm a bit shy to put my pic up here in case it ends up all over the Net. See, a brotha has more protocols to adhere to, its a complicated thing. I guess it doesn't work well in the hood (produces knife from under kilt). We all remember that disastrous film by Samuel L Jackson, 51st State, right? Im a lot younger tham Jeff, who does well with his skirting, but at present, with more friends and peer group and family ties, I have more to lose.

I could try a knee-length denim, but people would know it's a skirt and not shorts. The reason there is "no reaction" as so many on this forum claim is because the British public wouldnt say something to your face, but would certainly think you are wierd or say words to that effect after you've walked by. Only one person I knew wore a pencil skirt to work with a shirt and tie but he recently quit. I don't think other Civil Servants (Court staff etc) were used to the look and never took him seriously.

Until you see more men in kilts let alone skirts, or kilts for that matter get cheaper (£30 would be a good price), I'm sure I will never see it on our streets. I've never seen the 'men's skirts' in H&M, and aside from http://www.guiltykilts.com which is a little pricey, I've never seen any guy on Oxford Street or any other famous street in London in a kilt or skirt.

Until 50 Cent and co. start wearing them (or kilts), you can be sure the majority will not even give it a thought. Just a reality check for some of you here. People, especially young men (or brothas like myself), are sheep who follow the rest. Kilts are still viewed as very dressy wedding wear, and casual ones are still well over £50, and you have to wear them with thick socks and boots!

The fact that guys naturally sit with their legs open doesnt go well for us wearing pencil skirts You may not want to see that on the bus or train to work each morning...

There's a long long way to go before this can seriously catch on, IMHO. It remains an internet fantasy with pics of guys in their houses wearing skirts

As said I'd love to see it but I don't think I will just yet. My girl doesnt like the idea one bit which is an obstacle...

[Skirt Chaser]

(blushes), thanks, Em! but the pics are of Veletron, who ran IMFF, which was a site similar to this. It ran for a couple of years, but due to spammers, and lack of moderators had to close. I saw one poster, called Jermaine hounded out of that forum by another member called 1982 or something who didn't feel comfortable with black guys in skirts...

Miss Witch, you'll love IMFF http://www.imff.net/ when it returns. Hunky Nigel (veletron there and here) runs the place and the diversity of styles there is right up your alley.

Kilty, from what I recall Skip (Since 1982 there and here) was one of several thinking Jermaine was not quite as he presented himself to be. It was not a race issue but one of credibility and photos that didn't look quite right if I remember correctly.

Quiet Mouse

[Pythos]

Kilty, you limit yourself too much.

What the heck is this protocol stuff you talk about.

And formula 51 from what I heard was not all that much of a disaster. The story itself was flawed, but the acting by all those stars was spot on.

Sam Jackson can still be spotted kilted, and good for him.

[Milfmog]

… a brotha has more protocols to adhere to

I’m not sure that I’d agree with that. You are the one who decides whether you want to be one of the flock or stand on your own two feet. To a greater or lesser degree, we all make these decisions for ourselves, I suspect that almost no one here felt socially comfortable when first wearing skirts (or even kilts) in public. What we’ve all discovered is that it is our fears that hold us back rather than reality. If you are confident and comfortable you will command respect, on the other hand, if you go out expecting to be abused and beaten up it is likely to be a self-fulfilling prophesy.

Only you can make the decision to wear skirts if that is what you want, don’t blame anyone or anything else for choices that you make. (Sorry, on re-reading that it sounds harsh, it was not meant to). If you decide that you have more to lose than you have to gain, fair enough but remember it’s still your decision.

I could try a knee-length denim, but people would know it's a skirt and not shorts. The reason there is "no reaction" as so many on this forum claim is because the British public wouldnt say something to your face, but would certainly think you are wierd or say words to that effect after you've walked by.

If they are people you don’t know, why do you care what they think?

On the other hand, if you are talking about friends they will most certainly tell you what they think! You may not like that, but if you’re happy and confident about your choice they will soon get bored with taking the Mickey and accept you as you are, all be it with an occasional bit of leg pulling.

Until you see more men in kilts let alone skirts, or kilts for that matter get cheaper (£30 would be a good price), I'm sure I will never see it on our streets. < SNIP >…I've never seen any guy on Oxford Street or any other famous street in London in a kilt or skirt.

Have a look on ebay; there are plenty of kilts and skirts for less than the price of a pair of designer jeans. If you get lucky you might even get a kilt for less than the price of a pair of designer boxers as shown off by all the “why do my jeans keep falling down” types.

The fact that you’ve never seen a guy in a kilt or skirt on Oxford street only proves that you’ve not been there when I am! Admittedly I’m not in the smoke too often these days, but I’ve not worn trousers in town for about three years. I have worn black and camouflage kilts, a long black combat skirt (bought on ebay for a fiver) and a 15” olive miniskirt. The miniskirt caught a few eyes and raised a few smiles but the only direct feedback I had was positive and from women who’d never have glanced at me if I’d been in trousers (that was good for my ego, but my wife was not pleased that I got more attention and wolf whistles than she did ).

Until 50 Cent and co. start wearing them (or kilts), you can be sure the majority will not even give it a thought. Just a reality check for some of you here. People, especially young men (or brothas like myself), are sheep who follow the rest.

I agree that it would be great if a few role models started to dress outside the limits of current styles, maybe it will happen and maybe it won’t, but the fact that “the majority” will not think for themselves can hardly be news to anyone. You’re smart enough to have done some thinking, now you can choose whether you want to be a sheep or a wolf.

Kilts are still viewed as very dressy wedding wear,

I have three kilts, no one would ever confuse any of them with dressy wedding wear.

…and casual ones are still well over £50,

Some are, some aren’t.

…and you have to wear them with thick socks and boots!

Says who?

The fact that guys naturally sit with their legs open doesnt go well for us wearing pencil skirts You may not want to see that on the bus or train to work each morning...

If you’re wearing a pencil skirt you will not be sitting legs akimbo. Of course if you do chose to wear a looser fitting skirt and sit carelessly you may well show off some underwear, but is that really any worse than all your “brothas” showing off six inches of their skanky thousand-wash-grey Calvin Kleins above the waistband of their jeans?

There's a long long way to go before this can seriously catch on, IMHO. It remains an internet fantasy with pics of guys in their houses wearing skirts

My avatar was certainly not taken in my house…

Although there are some here who have not yet gone out skirted in public there are many who have.

As said I'd love to see it but I don't think I will just yet. My girl doesnt like the idea one bit which is an obstacle...

I guess that is one more thing for you to factor into your decision process.

As for skirted men catching on, it only needs more people to do it; you could be part of making that happen…

Have fun,


Ian.

(Yeah, alright kilty, I’m playing devil’s advocate. Don’t take the above to heart, I’m not really having a dig at you)

Edited to correct a couple of typo's. Ian.

[Charlie]

... casual ones are still well over £50, and you have to wear them with thick socks and boots!

Eh? sez who?? Who'd wear thick socks and boots in the warm weather?? Try a modern kilt and sandals for a great feeling of freedom, not to mention keeping cool (even better if you go regimental ). I've yet to see a woman wearing a kilt-type skirt and big boots ... come to think of it, I rarely see a woman in a skirt these days ...

Charlie

[Since1982]

Quoting Kilty = I saw one poster, called Jermaine hounded out of that forum by another member called 1982 or something who didn't feel comfortable with black guys in skirts... Unquote. Whoa down there big guy...I personally didn't feel good about Jermaine harrassing other people's choices on what THEY wore. I NEVER said anything unkind or untoward about Jermaines personal choices in clothes, I actually complimented him repeatedly about them until he posted a long diatribe about several people's looks skirted, saying one guy was "just wrong" for wearing a petticoat, and another was "Too OLD" to wear a skirt. No one (other than Jermaines wife) hounded Jermaine out of the forum. If I don't want to see what someone says, I put them on permanent ignore, which I seldom have ever done as I believe everyone has a right to their opinion as long as it doesn't attack anyone else's rights or beliefs. (which his did). Jermaine also saw it his duty to threaten me with bodily harm if he ever saw me in real life. Sorry, but this is a forum for opinions and discussion, not threats and diatribes against other's feelings and rights.

[crfriend]

Until 50 Cent and co. start wearing them (or kilts), you can be sure the majority will not even give it a thought. Just a reality check for some of you here. [...] There's a long long way to go before this can seriously catch on, IMHO. It remains an internet fantasy with pics of guys in their houses wearing skirts

Well, from a personal point of view, it it seems that mine doesn't square up with yours terribly well: I wear skits out in public very often -- in fact when I'm "off the clock" I primarily wear skirts unless I'm feeling very glum and down. In fact my wife has begun to think it's odd when she sees me in tr*users when I'm off work -- and I merely wear what I'm wearing when I go out about my business, skirt or no.

As said I'd love to see it but I don't think I will just yet. My girl doesnt like the idea one bit which is an obstacle...

Well, your girl not "getting it" is a problem, but it's a localised one -- yours mainly -- and one that it should be possible to conquer. I'll not say it'll be easy; empirical evidence seems to indicate that it's those that are closest to us are often the ones that rail most violently against any attempt to "rock the boat". That seeming fact (is it really borne out by hard numbers? Diana is actually quite supportive of my "odd" fashion choices.) comes up very frequently, and, I suspect, it's mostly caused by misunderstandings and miscommunication between the folks in question. Talk about it, reason with her (gals can be quite smart), and listen to what she says; it may ease the path.

Finally, if nobody is going to have the cubes to actually "take the skirts to the streets" then sadly, yes, it is limited to being an "internet fantasy". And that'd be a ruddy shame.

[ChristopherJ]

It remains an internet fantasy with pics of guys in their houses wearing skirts

Nope. I wear skirts out around town (Bristol) most days.

[Kilty]

I seem to have ruffled a few feathers here.... Sorry, but I'm speaking from a younger person's perspective. I like how Veletron dressed and as a young person he was setting a trend. Perhaps after that time he tired of it or chose to fit in with his peer group. Perhaps he just tired of keeping his forum free of spam, We'll never know.

I seem to have angered some, I meant no offense. I actually bought a kilt today in http://www.highlandstore.com - I went to their shop in Russell Square, London. Very good price, a black kilt for £49. I was a bit peeved when the guy charged me an additional £12 for a kilt pin but I now have my first kilt. When I mentioned an 'internet fantasy' it was not to be cheeky but I do see more advocating it than I've seen out on the streets of London. Granted, perhaps I've not been about when other guys in kilts are, but with this slight warm spell we've had in London, I would don a kilt if I had the guts...

Mentioning Protocol, I think there is a credibility thing for black guys, just due to culture. There are some damn silly things, and very bad things we do, I don't like all these stabbings that seem to be happening if someone is 'disrespecting' someone else for instance. I'm not going to venture into politics here so don't worry....

A friend of mine is looking to buy a kilt, but he's a bit on the big side. Do they cost more if they have to be custom-made? Any advice on what I can tell him?

Another site that might be worth a look is http://www.sporranclan.org and there's another kilt site worth a look...

I might even post a pic soon....


Once again, sorry guys!