Figuring out what Freestyling encompasses

[Skirt Chaser]

Are fashion freestylers always shopping the other side of the aisle? I was wondering if men who wear items always meant for men but out of the usual context would be considered fashion freestylers too, though maybe not for the support purposes of this site. I guess I am asking if we use a limited definition or if this is what freestyle clothing generally means.

Quiet Mouse

[SkirtedViking]

I consider myself a freestyler and in my opinion though I prefer wearing only things that are considered female but as a guy.A freestyler is someone who challenges the stereotype that is left for men only.So if you wear something that is not considered normal in the narrow choice for men you may be a freestyler.A kilt is a man's garment though women wear it as you may guess without problem,but outside of Scotland if a man wears it it may be viewed as freestyling.

[sapphire]

To me, "freestyling" has meant doing something in a way out of the norm.

Skirts and dresses for men are one example.

I went to high school during a time when girls were not allowed to wear pants and all girls looked like they came strainght out of "The Donna Reed Show".

I frequently got into trouble for wearing things like a paisley dress with a semi circle skirt and matching semi-circular cuffs. Another outfit that caused consternation was a lovely tailered jacket and a-line skirt made from quilted fabric.

Neither of these outfits was at all revealing and the hemlines were within the school's standards.

The kicker came when I made my Senior Girl Scout uniiform and wore it to a ceremony in which I received many awards. I had tailered the uniform to show off my curvy body, turned the skirt into a mini and wore it with black fishnet stockings and stiletto heels

My mother, who had worked her way up to some VP level was mortified.

So those are examples of what feestyling meant to me as a young woman: taking something usual and making it unusual.

What does it mean to the guys here today?

Diana

[Departed Member]

A kilt is a man's garment though women wear it as you may guess without problem,but outside of Scotland if a man wears it it may be viewed as freestyling.

Sorry, I really don't think that is so! Certainly not in Europe (or indeed, anywhere that British influence has been felt at some time or other!). Kilt = ultra 'macho', as far from 'freestyle' as it's possible to get! Conversely, a lady (outside of the uniform constraints of a pipe band) wearing a gentleman's Kilt, would be regarded as 'rather strange', err, especially in Scotland!

[Pythos]

Skirts and pantyhose are really the only "feminine" articles of clothing I wear. My other main staples of "odd" clothing would be my spandex leggings and catsuits (unitards really, I just like the term catsuit). These items are in fact unisex and sold as such, even the vinyl coated pair of tights were sold as unisex. The only reason I have "feminine" skirts is because the only "men's" skirts I have seen for sale have been either ridiculously pleaty and short, some were boxy looking at best, sloppy looking at worst (city skirt), too damned expensive, or just too kilt like.

I don't wear kilts because I don't like them that much, and because I feel they would become the only acceptable male skirt if skirts were to become acceptable for men (something I think will be sooner than later), and I don't want to be limited to just kilts. I like tight short skirts with a zipper at the back, I like loose wrap skirts, long broomstick style skirts, shiny spandex mini skirts, and so on. Kilts are basically one style, pleated, and heavy.

The reason I have "feminine" hosiery is because in all essense pantyhose, and tights were originally men's clothing...well tights were anyway...pantyhose are just a thinner lighter version of tights (at least in the states). There are companies that are making male hosiery, (active skin, Levee, Gerbe,) but most of these are limited in color, and style. The active skin drag on the inside of some of my skirts, whearas the leggs hose I wear slide over most surfaces quite nicely. The Levee WoMan brand tights are very delicate compared to the sheer energy hose.

If it wasn't for these problems and limitatations I would have a wardrobe of unisex articles of clothing.

[sapphire]

I don't think kilt necessarily means macho. A lot depends on the fabric of choice.

Years ago I made myself two plaid kilts: one with delicious shades of bright turquoise and the other in shades of neon orange. I never met a man who was interested in trying either of them.

Although, now that I remember them, I must make a replacement in paisley and another in Chinese brocade. HUmmmm... maybe a glittery sliky fabric.
Diana

[Bob]

There is history to the word "freestyle" within the alternative men's fashion movement.

It all started in 1996 with Tom's Cafe, of which SkirtCafe is a direct descdendant:

http://www.tomscafe.org/forums2/showthr ... ht=history

Once the skirt-and-kilt folks started talking on Tom's Cafe, the movement gradually factionalized into "Bravehearts" and "Freestylers." This resulted in the creation of Chris's Atrium (now Kristine's Atrium: http://grevstad.org/cgi-bin/atrium.pl) for the more "freestyle" crowd. In a nutshell, Bravehearts were kilts-only, while Freestylers were willing to consider other stuff as well.

Although Tom always sought to protect diversity --- he welcomed everyone --- there were continual flame wars been Bravehearts and Freestylers. Bravehearts felt that androgynous-looking guys were giving the whole skirts-or-kilts-or-whatever movement a bad image. Freestylers felt the Bravehearts needed to take a chill pill, and were quick to point out that kilts are skirts too.

Tom was sick with cancer, and he died (RIP). Before his death, Tom handed the forum over to Noodles. However, without Tom's personality presence, the Cafe was not able to manage the diversity, and most of the Bravehearts left for http://xmarksthescot.com. This was not due to any lacking in Noodles' leadership, but rather to the fact that many of the people stayed because they knew Tom personally and had great respect for him --- and were now grieving.

Meanwhile, Chris was undergoing a gender transition and became Kristine. This left many fearful that Tom's Cafe was heading in a transgender direction, which most of the Freestylers did not want any more than the Bravehearts.

That was a little over a year ago, at which point Noodles handed the forum over to me, with the stipulation that we could no longer call it Tom's Cafe. We decided on SkirtCafe, and have never found a better name sinde then.

Meanwhile, I sought to re-define the conceptual landscape to put an end, once and for all, to the Braveheart vs. Freestyler debates. Those debates were based on an external evaluation of whether one guy thought another guy's outfit was "too feminine." A Freestyler would come up with something he felt quite guy-like in, and a Braveheart would take offense at it, feeling it LOOKED too un-guy-like. I therefore removed exterior looks from the standard of evaluation: if you present yourself as a man and you're wearing a skirt, then you're a man-in-skirt. It doesn't matter whether the skirt is a traditional Highland getup or a polka-dot poodle dress. The key factor is you're not playing a woman's gender role in either case.

I believe that this re-orientation worked, and we've had peace ever since. Admittedly, many guys are "kilts-only" and don't want to associate with guys who would wear skirts. But some kilts-only folk are more open-minded and have stayed on.

Given that structure, there was theoretically no need for a separate forum on kilts or freestyle. But both were requested by popular demand, so I have included them.

So these days... I don't really know what "Freestyle" means. In one sense, it could be used to describe this entire board --- men who are willing to wear anything will still claiming their masculinity. That is a lot braver thing for men to do than women these days. But I don't want it to be a "faction" of our community, and have worked hard to prevent that factionalization.

[Emerald Witch]

Skirts and pantyhose are really the only "feminine" articles of clothing I wear. ...

I don't wear kilts because I don't like them that much, and because I feel they would become the only acceptable male skirt if skirts were to become acceptable for men (something I think will be sooner than later), and I don't want to be limited to just kilts.

I like tight short skirts with a zipper at the back, I like loose wrap skirts, long broomstick style skirts, shiny spandex mini skirts, and so on.

The reason I have "feminine" hosiery is because in all essense pantyhose, and tights were originally men's clothing...well tights were anyway...pantyhose are just a thinner lighter version of tights (at least in the states). There are companies that are making male hosiery, (active skin, Levee, Gerbe,) but most of these are limited in color, and style.

(edited much for space)

Yes, hosiery was once considered masculine wear. I think of our American founding fathers in their high heels, lace cravats, silk brocade jackets, and yes -- hosiery (held up with garters). Not to mention powdered wigs, but that would be getting just plain silly.

Compared to what ladies had to wear, this was considered fashion freedom!

Given all the delicious fabric choices which men have had to relinquish over the years (pinstripe anyone?) do you think that it is fair to say men have just about seen the pendulum swing as far as it can towards boring?

Maybe now it is finally time to let the reins loosen up and get some color and texture back into the mainstream of men's lives. I for one would love to see that. Just as an OPTION.

[AMM]

...if you present yourself as a man and you're wearing a skirt, t doesn't matter whether the skirt is a traditional Highland getup or a polka-dot poodle dress...

Totally off-topic, but I had this sudden urge to photo-shop one of those ultra-macho Utilikilt ads to convert the kilt to a polka-dot poodle dress. Q: would you call a heavyweight ultimate fighting champion who is wearing a pink polka-dot minidress a "crossdresser". A: Not if you value your health.

So these days... I don't really know what "Freestyle" means. In one sense, it could be used to describe this entire board --- men who are willing to wear anything will still claiming their masculinity....

As good a definition as any.

And, since "freestyling" is kind of a negative definition -- that is, it is non-freestyling that is well defined, and "freestyling" is anything at all that isn't non-freestyling (my mathematical background is coming out, I see) -- you can't really say what freestylers as a group do or believe. You can only say what this or that freestyler thinks, or wears.

-- AMM

[ChristopherJ]

Thanks for the explanation Bob - of the evolution of the freestyler and braveheart tags.

The key factor is you're not playing a woman's gender role in either case.

That is a beautiful example of simplicity at work. It's all so obvious when you put it like that - but I would have taken a page or so to say it!

So these days... I don't really know what "Freestyle" means.

My personal definition is probably a bit different from that used by many others here. I just use the term very loosely to mean someone who is not confined by masculine fashion rules. That is, someone who might be willing to try out fashions that most men would not think of wearing.

[JeffB1959]

Well, this is just my opinion, but I'm of the opinion that "Freestyle" can mean anything to anybody, but Christopher J's definition works well too. It can mean a liberation from the rigid convention of clothing men can wear, the most notable variations from the path being skirts and high heeled shoes. I wear the latter (most notably pumps) on a regular basis and look forward to soon going out in the former. The man who is bold enough and secure enough in his masculinity to wear articles of clothing most associated with women have indeed freed themselves from the rigid mindset society placed on us regarding what we can or can't wear. I guess that makes us all "Freestylers".

[crfriend]

I think of our American founding fathers in their high heels, lace cravats, silk brocade jackets, and yes -- hosiery (held up with garters).

How many yobbos do you suppose would directly challenge George Washington about his attire? At 6'4", and an apparent ability to command a room by his mere presence, I'd say, "not many".

Compared to what ladies had to wear, this was considered fashion freedom!

Things at the time hadn't gotten to the level of insanity that they later did (the mid eighteenth century was, I believe, pre-corset), so it's possible that the ladies were almost as comfortable as the gents. True, the formal attire of the time was cumbersome (and that's for the most part what we see in pictures of the guys, too), but the "off-hours" garb would have been vastly simpler.

(pinstripe anyone?)

Dang, that reminds me of a suit I had many years ago. It was a charcoal grey pinstripe (oh, there's a surprise), but the pinstripes were multiply coloured; the effect was subtle but very sharp. I'd like to re-do that outfit but with a pleated skirt instead of the pants.

[...] do you think that it is fair to say men have just about seen the pendulum swing as far as it can towards boring?

It's not just swung as far as it can go, the ruddy thing is hard up against the stop and still pushing to go beyond. Yuck. It wasn't always that way, but it has been for the past 25 years (a human generation -- think about it); it really is time for a change. The '80s and beyond have been bad for us; I yearn for a return of fun colours, a wide choice of fabrics, and an occasionally outright over-the-top enthusiasm in guys' clothing.

[Emerald Witch]

(pinstripe anyone?)

Dang, that reminds me of a suit I had many years ago. It was a charcoal grey pinstripe (oh, there's a surprise), but the pinstripes were multiply coloured; the effect was subtle but very sharp. I'd like to re-do that outfit but with a pleated skirt instead of the pants.

Oooooooooo! I can see it now! Sexy shoulders, totally man-tailored jacket with all the lapels and extra pockets and buttonholes and such... charcoal gray suit of fantastic wool with multi-colored pinstripes, which allow you to wear any color shirt you want underneath, with awesome cufflinks, maybe... and a very tailored, not-at-all frilly, pleated or partially-pleated, just-below-the-knee length skirt, with (please! for my sake!) immaculate dark hose and shoes with at least a good 3" heels, to give you that excellent psychological "height" edge over all the other men in the room.

(quivering sigh)

[...] do you think that it is fair to say men have just about seen the pendulum swing as far as it can towards boring?

It's not just swung as far as it can go, the ruddy thing is hard up against the stop and still pushing to go beyond. Yuck. It wasn't always that way, but it has been for the past 25 years (a human generation -- think about it); it really is time for a change. The '80s and beyond have been bad for us; I yearn for a return of fun colours, a wide choice of fabrics, and an occasionally outright over-the-top enthusiasm in guys' clothing.

I'm game!

Actually, concerning the generation-of-boring-thing, I've noticed it too, only more. I think it's been nearly a hundred years since men's fashions have changed much. Basically since the industrial revolution, and the advent of photography. What, guys got all camera-shy? People don't even wear HATS anymore. Not even in the middle of winter! Nor undershirts, unless they intend to wear their overshirt open to expose both layers. What's the deal?

I think it all comes down to what Pythos and AMM are saying in other threads -- that men define their success as men by whether or not they "fit in" to the mold carved out for them by others... Maybe by society in general, maybe by their fathers, who knows? But it isn't these men themselves defining their own "look". Or I'd guess at least 99.9% of men are willing to just keep their heads down and "go along" with whatever they're told to wear by society and focus instead on more important matters such as earning a living, etc.

It isn't until recently that people have had so much freedom and so much tolerance in the world that they have been able to even BEGIN to expect compassion and acceptance for such things as alternative lifestyles. Thank God we live in such a society! We may not quite be there yet, but I do believe we've come an awfully long way.

Anyhoo, this has turned into a rant, unexpectedly. (Who'd've ever guessed it from me?)

Back to the point -- I really like the idea of men wearing lots more fabrics and colors! Women can wear whatever they want, and so can men. It's just a choice thing. I hate seeing frumpy, dowdy women, (trapped by middle-aged mentality usually) and I'm sorry when I see men thinking they have no alternative but to be frumpy, dowdy men too. Comfortable is fine, but sparkle while you do it, guys!

[alexthebird]

Emerald Witch wrote:

do you think that it is fair to say men have just about seen the pendulum swing as far as it can towards boring?

I'm not sure anymore that it is just men. My wife and I took visited Ellis Island in NY Harbor yesterday and we decided that the entire concept of fashion must be dead and buried. With the exception of a number of Indian women in lovely saris, nearly all we could see was black, white and khaki, cargo pants (and has anyone ever seen anyone putting anything into those extra pockets?), shorts, jeans, twill capris and Dockers-type pants, with some younger girls in the occasional mini skirt.

Nearly 500 people on the ferry and, saris aside, hardly a single interesting pattern, fabric or cut.

By the way, the Ellis Island museum is great.

[alexthebird]

Are fashion freestylers always shopping the other side of the aisle?
Quiet Mouse

I take the approach that there is no aisle. If I like it and it looks good on me, I'll buy it.

I buy sweaters and jerseys that were originally designed for men and women, but woven women's tops generally don't fit me well and women's pants don't even come close to fitting. I bought a kilt in England but apart from that, my skirts are "women's." I have to buy men's shoes, because of size issues (I have very long but very narrow feet) but I did find a pair of 13A women's running shoes (sorry UK folks - I don't know the conversion when widths are involved) that are the most comfortable gym shoes I've ever owned. Nearly all of my jewelry is "women's," but I do own some cufflinks, a "man's" watch, and a couple of "men's" bracelets.