Any press is good press

[DanR]

WHY do you need to use 'professional' models? What's wrong with real people? Aren't you allowed to? I'm NOT criticising your skirts - they look perfectly fine to me! However, your analogy (frame/photo) says it all, that's exactly how "Joe Public" perceives 'life' in general, never mind skirts!

Here's where I bought my two mannequins:
NYC Display
There's quite the price difference from the earlier firm I posted about.
(For the sake of this discussion, I'll assume you've never been on a budget.)

While the tone of your posts in this thread have been condescending, Merlin, I'll still reply. I've already had to deal with two sophomoric radio disk jockeys (and their knuckle-dragging listeners) earlier today so more personal attacks against me aren't really that big of a deal.

To answer your question: Because my experience with amateur models is that they're flakes. I can hear it now from the site visitors: "Why did you use THAT guy? He's sooo fat." Or: "Wow, that guy is teh ghey." Besides, I've taken care of the problem:

CitySkirt

You said:

Mind you, the mannequin does look absolutely appalling - effete to say the very least! 'Nuff to put me off, I'm sad to say.............

(Just to be clear, the mannequin is never included in the price of your skirt.)

Honestly, guys, are you that uneasy about your sexual identity? You let a mannequin make you uncomfortable? They're made out of fiberglas, latex paint, steel, and chrome (and the chrome is in the rod that props them up). They won't give you "gay cooties." Have you ever gotten gay cooties while at a boat show? Lots of fiberglas and chrome there, y'know. While I've been a heterosexual all my life and I've been very happily married to Lori for 13 wonderful years, I think I'd rather have all gay male friends than to suffer the paranoid delusions and asinine behavior of allegedly straight men for the rest of my life. What an incredibly ignorant and childish gender we are! Now I understand why Siri doesn't come around here anymore.

And, of course, it's always so much easire to make a denigrating comment than it is to offer supporting words or encouragement, isn't it? Insulting someone is so much more macho and impressive, right? Consistently it's comments like that that illustrate why the vast majority of designers focus on the womens market. At first was the complaint that customers couldn't see what a particular skirt looked like while worn. So I purchased the mannequins I could afford with a portion of our tax refund in January. (There seems to be a commonly-held but erroneous perception that all clothing manufacturers are rolling in cash day and night.)

Some of you who are still here from the Tom's Café days have been very supportive and that's always been appreciated. (Yeah, that includes you, Skip.) But for the haters and the trolls, I have one last thing to say: My sincerest hope is that when [the very] few of you who will strike out on your own with your own business will meet up with the same deluge of scorn and ridicule that you so generously heap on those of us who actually are doing something positive today.

No wonder this forum is in the toilet.

[Bob]

It's stuff like these neo-cons that makes me want to be a liberal. I mean, step back a bit. Whatever points these people do or do not have, they seem to take joy in baiting and putting down others. They seem to sniff out power and instinctively align themselves with it, as if to make themselves feel better. They're just not nice people. Why would I want to align with these folks?

[Ray]

What's up with the trannies? Neither the article, nor any of the "responses" hinted at anything. Is there some sort of verifiable engineering problem? That looks like a wonderful little car for an urban setting.

The transmission is an automatic (boo hiss) but if it were smooth and refined, that would be acceptable. It's not. It is jerky and utilitarian at best, striking an incongruity in a car that is otherwise jewel-like.

There is a small roadster coupé which has sadly been discontinued. A UK consortium is looking to buy the tooling and rights to the car. Their first engineering job is to ditch the auto obx and get a good manual gearbox replacement.

That aside, the Smart is a great car. Like the male skirt, to be seen in one atrracts admiration from some, ridicule from others. Like the male skirt, the owner has a sense of pride in what they have - a mind that thinks independently.

Ray

[Departed Member]

While the tone of your posts in this thread have been condescending, Merlin, I'll still reply. Honestly, guys, are you that uneasy about your sexual identity? You let a mannequin make you uncomfortable?

And, of course, it's always so much easire to make a denigrating comment than it is to offer supporting words or encouragement, isn't it? Insulting someone is so much more macho and impressive, right?

Some of you who are still here from the Tom's Café days have been very supportive and that's always been appreciated. (Yeah, that includes you, Skip.) But for the haters and the trolls, I have one last thing to say: My sincerest hope is that when [the very] few of you who will strike out on your own with your own business will meet up with the same deluge of scorn and ridicule that you so generously heap on those of us who actually are doing something positive today.

No wonder this forum is in the toilet.

Condescending? Utter nonsense! I'm asking perfectly reasonable, serious questions. Why all the vitriol? I'm only trying to illustrate the type of attitude that your denigrators are likely to use. Their perception (especially the media morons) will influence folk. You state "I've already had to deal with two sophomoric radio disk jockeys (and their knuckle-dragging listeners) earlier today so more personal attacks against me aren't really that big of a deal." Now DanR, seeing as you've taken a 'pop' at me, personally (I'd rather you'd read what I said!), may I make a supportive observation? You come over, on this forum, as very aggressive and confrontational (even though I probably agree with/understand most of what you say), and appear only too willing to lash out at those who are only too appreciative of your efforts. How do you think you came over, on your radio interview?

[DanR]

How do you think you came over, on your radio interview?

According to those who listened, they felt that I held my own. But it's irrelevant; I've shut CitySkirt down.

I'm going in for outpatient surgery today so this is all the time I'll have for my farewell.

[iain]

I asked a friend once what 5 years of waitressing had given her. she said, "a profound hatred of the human race." sorry that mixing with the human race seems to have this effect on so many people.

i've run my own business since 1983 and while exchanging money and commitments with others has certainly shown me peoples' weaknesses, I still enjoy it, and I still like people as much as when I first started.

My first business partner pulled out before we even started, leaving me to repay all the loans myself, and my first client bounced her cheque on me. That was my introduction to business. but 23 years later, I'm going strong, while both of them are probably dead.

[MtnBiker]

I have a waitress friend too. Same thing. Apparently, the vast majority of us humans just suck.

[iain]

sure! it's true. but once you accept that, you're laughing. it's people who refuse to accept it that continually feel let down. but it's their problem if they don't learn.

businesses which do well and grow strong are dealing with the same customers. what's the difference? you tell me.

[alexthebird]

Whatever points these people do or do not have, they seem to take joy in baiting and putting down others. They seem to sniff out power and instinctively align themselves with it, as if to make themselves feel better. They're just not nice people. Why would I want to align with these folks?

I think a lot of the baiting and flaming and arguing and so on that occurs on the internet would never occur in face to face conversations. Everyone is aware of the lack of nuance in internet communication (hence the use of emoticons) but I think a more serious issue is how anonymity and the lack of repercussions affect those communications. I'd guess that most of the comments made on that blog would never have been said if the commenter was standing in front of Dan. It seems a bit cowardly to me.

alexthebird

[gshubert]

I'm going in for outpatient surgery today so this is all the time I'll have for my farewell.

DanR, I hope your surgery goes well, and that you can restore the CitySkirt web site soon. Best regards,

[DanR]

DanR, I hope your surgery goes well, and that you can restore the CitySkirt web site soon. Best regards,

Thanks, Greg. It did go well. Turns out it was not a cyst but a benign fatty tumor. (It's been an extremely rough week.) Pretty quick outpatient stuff. My dermatologist has a very skilled staff working with him. If any readers live in the Seattle area, I can't say enough good things about the Virginia Mason folks. Excellent health care all 'round.

Anyway, it's not looking good for CitySkirt being anything more than a holding company for my other ventures. Said ventures will not include designing for men anymore apart from the occasional piece that fits into a very specific market niche or seasonal line.

That leaves one skirt-for-men vendor left that I'm aware of: Midas. Located in Manchester, England, Lance has made it to the five year mark with his business which is the make-or-break year in the fashion industry. I was in my fourth year with CitySkirt but the deluge of hate e-mail I've been getting made it clear that, as a gender, we men haven't evolved enough to make anything other than pants acceptable in the eyes of our fellow men (and most women). JDEZ focuses on the spa industry and I wish Dave the best of luck with his venture. And, of course, there are a couple dozen kilt manufacturers out there. Their number will only increase albeit it at a pedestrian pace.

Noodles got it right: The mens skirt market polarized since 2003. Those who did skirt moved further into the cross-dressing environs. Those who did not became militant kilters. Aside from designers like Vivienne Westwood and Jean-Paul Gaultier, you aren't going to see many folks creating skirts for men because they just don't sell. You'll have to scavenge the womens racks at your local thrift shops.

I will be putting a few close-out items on eBay. If you're interested in buying one, you might want to check that site occasionally until November or so. I will NOT be making announcement of items here at the Cafe anymore. I just got too much nastiness from lurkers to warrant me walking away from this board permanently in the very near future. (I'm shutting off the payment processing folks for CitySkirt today. It's expensive and I don't need it anymore.) If you've done business with me before, contact me privately and I'll work out a payment alternative if you need another skirt until November. No, I'm not accepting new male customer orders.

To give you a little perspective on the past few years I've spent on CitySkirt:
I've sold to customers in Australia, Norway, Sweden, Spain, Switzerland, Germany, France, and most of the US. The Deep South and Texas were the most frequent customers (yeah, go figure), followed closely by California and New England. The biggest headache was procuring raw materials as we've ceded the majority of our textile manufacturing in the US to China. The same is true for fasteners (except for Germany). Draw your own conclusions. One of my designs, the Olympia, is being added to the permanent collection of the Kinsey Institute / Mather Museum at the University of Indiana to sit beside a design from Yves Saint-Laurent. Not bad for a guy in his first design job.

[Bravehearts.us]

I’m not even going to get into this senseless debate/argument. I just want to say I’m sorry to see City Skirt go and/or to see you leave this board. I know I speak for Tom as well when I say that I was really pleased to meet and work on MSM with such a talented person as yourself. Most of all I’m glad you are ok from your surgery and I hope you stay well and keep in touch, my friend.

[binx]

For having given your time, effort and investment towards offering men other fashion choices here in the US. You will be missed.

binx

[crfriend]

Turns out [the issue] was not a cyst but a benign fatty tumor.

That's great news, Dan. I'm happy for you.

I was in my fourth year with CitySkirt but the deluge of hate e-mail I've been getting made it clear that, as a gender, we men haven't evolved enough to make anything other than pants acceptable in the eyes of our fellow men (and most women).

No offence intended, but was the "tipping point" this most recent convultion with the idiots on the radio show, the snide comments from the neo-cons on an inane web-site, or has it been an ongoing problem for some time? Put quite bluntly, I don't understand why these idiots get their knickers in a knot over something so fundamentally unimportant. A "deluge of hate mail" merely shows the level of mental maturity of the sender -- along with a healthy case of "group-think".

Noodles got it right: The mens skirt market polarized since 2003. Those who did skirt moved further into the cross-dressing environs. Those who did not became militant kilters.

This may deserve some analysis and conversation. I'm rather new to the "game", and am really trying to find what "works" and avoid what, demonstrably, doesn't. To me, this has nothing whatsoever to do with cross-dressing and everything to do with how comfortable I am, as myself, not as something else. Was there a particular event in 2003 that precipitated this schism? Can we identify it, and by identifying it, dissect it to see what went so wrong? After all, we're a rather tiny community right now; we can't really afford to fight amongst ourselves.

I will NOT be making announcement of items here at the Cafe anymore. I just got too much nastiness from lurkers to warrant me walking away from this board permanently in the very near future.

That's sad; I've always found your comments on "how things work" in the fahion industry to be very thought-provoking, enlightening, and, yes, sometimes a bit scary. It took guts to spend so much time there. The fact that you made a good run at it in your "first design job" shows that there's quite a lot of talent there. Best of luck in future endeavours, whatever they may be, and do hang around; just ignore the lurkers and the idiots.

The biggest headache was procuring raw materials as we've ceded the majority of our textile manufacturing in the US to China. The same is true for fasteners (except for Germany). Draw your own conclusions.

At the risk of getting political, I suspect that's the result of short-sightedness and corporate greed; we're precariously close to the point where we won't be able to manufacture anything ourselves because we've discarded the technology -- and the human experience -- to do so. We're right up with {insert your favourite third-world cess-pit here} in that regard, and it's getting worse by the quarter.

One of my designs, the Olympia, is being added to the permanent collection of the Kinsey Institute / Mather Museum at the University of Indiana to sit beside a design from Yves Saint-Laurent. Not bad for a guy in his first design job.

Bravo!