“Just normal variations…”

[greenboots]

I came across an article on the BBC news App by Dr Hilary Cass who conducted a review into Children and gender.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c0k1vkmxgd6o

I was struck by the part in the middle.

Asked about why the number of children and young people who have gender dysphoria is increasing, Cass said it was "complex" but there was a different cultural context, with people "less locked into gender stereotypes".
"I think what has kind of misled children is the belief that if you are not a typical girl, if you like playing with trucks, or boys who like dressing up or that you have same-sex attraction that means that you're trans and actually it's not like that but those are all normal variations," she said.
"I think children and young people were being given a narrative that it's not okay to be anything but absolutely typical of the other girls on Instagram."

It’s still light on support for boys who want to be different, but it’s refreshing to see someone with influence acknowledging that the polarisation of the public debate is harmful. Also there’s a comment acknowledging that we don’t understand everything about gender dysphoria, whereas most commentators claim to be the ultimate authority, at least for their extreme views.

Let us hope that this helps to bring a more measured approach. Though how much will trickle through to secondary school children, and thence to men, remains to be seen (see Barleymower’s family story).

[Can’t easily find the link as I’m on my phone]

[Modoc]

I feel deeply for people struggling with gender identity issues. I'm sure that no one who isn't directly affected has any real idea what it must be like. The media hype has indeed turned the struggle into a circus and is not at all helpful to anyone, but that's the world we live in. So many are sure that they know what's right for everyone else. Things we are 100% sure of today may look very different to us tomorrow, and the problem is that we may make decisions today that are irreversible or totally devastating tomorrow. There is no easy answer.

[STEVIE]

Back in the stone age when I was but a nipper, I wanted to wear girl clothes.
Did I want to be a girl, I didn't know that was even possible.
As a pre-teen in the late 60s, I wanted to wear girl clothes.
Did I want to be a girl, still unaware of the possibility.
1970s and hormonally rampant, I wanted to wear girl clothes.
Did I want to be a girl, you've guessed it, but I felt I must try to look like one.
By 1982 and very firmly attached to my "boy bits", EUREKA, they can be arranged to girly bits.
Now approaching 3 score and 10, I still prefer the clothes from across the aisle.
Yeah, I am one of those "normal variations" and possibly saved by a lack of information but my formative years were still blighted by ignorance and prejudice too.
Today, a surfeit of information, but with much of the same prejudices to accompany it.
Steve.

[Barleymower]

As a person who has spent a large proportion of their life with gender dysphoria, I feel like I can speak with some knowledge on the subject.
Oddly I didn't ever fancy boys, I was completely and still into women. Quite handy really being equipped as a man in this respect.
I became so troubled by it that in 1992 my nervous system crumbled and I spent the next 10 years living a quite horrible existence that nobody understood, wanted to understand or even discuss. Lots of strong medication that didn't work and councillors who just said "how do you feel about that?".
I survived by some miracle and 24 years after the attacks ended I'm still here.
At this point in my life I am happy to say my dysphoria has largely calmed down. I like my life wearing skirts some of the time. I enjoy being a man I love my wife and my kids.
We are all different and I feel deeply for the plight of young trans people. It's a problem that has ro be handled very delicately and never with anger and hatred.

[timemeddler]

supposedely theres a lot of correlation between young boys wearing girls attire and autism as well.

[crfriend]

supposedely theres a lot of correlation between young boys wearing girls attire and autism as well.

There are all sorts of wild conspiracy theories about autism out there, none of which are worth getting into.

My personal take on the matter is that it mostly revolves around the fascination with the forbidden, and once that hurdle is cleared the fascination diminishes. Make no bones about it, when we were young boys, "girls clothes" were strictly proscribed, sometimes leading to parental beatings if a lad was found to be "experimenting" -- which was entirely counterproductive and merely reinforced the fascination. Such is the adolescent mind.

Thus, I suspect the vast bulk of this is easily explainable without getting into "gender theory" and outright conspiracy. It's just a normal part of life.

[robehickman]

supposedely theres a lot of correlation between young boys wearing girls attire and autism as well.

'Autism' is a vague collection of genetic neurotypes, with a common feature of monotropic behaviour patterns, and pattern-based. analytical thinking. Monotropism means that an individual has a tendency to focus deeply on one, or a small number of things, for an extended period of time. The following video is a clear discussion of this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3mBbOOzhoGQ

Monotropic behaviours evolved in the human species because they are highly advantageous for some kinds of task. for example, 'academic' research. This kind of work tends to require deep attention for extended periods of time.

Human behaviours are a combination of both the genetic 'hardware instincts', and learned behaviours. The human species is inherently and objectively neurodiverse, which means that not all people behave the same even given identical education.

From what I have personally observed, 'neurotypical' people tend to adopt the behaviour patterns of whatever the majority of other neurotypical people are doing, never stopping to question if anything is a good idea.

Certain neurotypes that today get lumped under the term 'autism', seem to exist to directly counter that mass copying behaviour: they ignore everyone external to themselves, work things out from first principles using logic, or by trying stuff randomly. Questioning 'why can women wear this thing but I (male) can't' - is a natural side effect of this (they will also question many other things).

Having diverse neurotypes in the species is extremely valuable because if they did not exist, then it would be very easy for the whole social system to become stuck in one train of thought. If that train of thought were detrimental in nature, it could lead to species extinction.

The 'all people are exactly the same' mentality seems to have arisen in the 19th century due to the industrial revolution creating a 'we need standardised job roles to fill these seats in a factory' situation. However, the mentality is completely incorrect, and causing a great deal of harm to people.

Neurodiversity exists in the human species for a very good reason. Personally, I believe that the categories of 'autism' dyslexia' etc are a gross oversimplification. There are probably tens of thousands of neurotypes in the species which evolved to fill available niches.

Humans will behave very irrationally and stigmatise things they do not understand. A great example of that is the medieval and early modern witch trials. As most people do not understand neurodiversity yet, it gets stigmatised in the same way.

My personal take on the matter is that it mostly revolves around the fascination with the forbidden.

Humans have been trying to exert dominance over each other forever, often by forbidding things. Often those things have no logical basis, and thus the existence of 'questioning' behaviours is an evolutionary advantage.

[Jim]

From what I have personally observed, 'neurotypical' people tend to adopt the behaviour patterns of whatever the majority of other neurotypical people are doing, never stopping to question if anything is a good idea.

I've just thought of myself as a non-conformist. Does that mean I'm not 'neurotypical', but somewhere on "the spectrum"?

The Apostle Paul wrote, "Do not be conformed to this world". Maybe he wasn't neurotypical, either.

[john62]

I have no doubt Paul was neurodivergent, maybe even Asperberger's.

John

[robehickman]

From what I have personally observed, 'neurotypical' people tend to adopt the behaviour patterns of whatever the majority of other neurotypical people are doing, never stopping to question if anything is a good idea.

I've just thought of myself as a non-conformist. Does that mean I'm not 'neurotypical', but somewhere on "the spectrum"?

The Apostle Paul wrote, "Do not be conformed to this world". Maybe he wasn't neurotypical, either.

I have no idea, and would suggest watching the video I previously linked about monotropism, as well as the following:


Ways I Can Tell Someone’s Autistic (Including High Maskers):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CKIy_xvf_Jk


Ways I Can Tell Someone is a High Masking Autistic:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ad4TSG4RY80


Ways I Can Tell Someone's Autistic Part Two:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KZ35VU3Jll8

I'd also recommend researching neurodiversity as a general concept. People of a given neurotype seem to innately and subconsciously flock together with others of the same neurotype. Thus it would not surprise me if most / all of the people on this forum are neurodiverse.

The concept of 'The Spectrum' is highly misleading because it implies something analogous to the spectrum of light, a linear sequence. That mentality has also been pushed because of the 'severity levels of autism' concept. That is the wrong way of viewing it. It is actually an N-dimensional possibility space, more akin to a skill tree in a video game.

I have no doubt Paul was neurodivergent, maybe even Asperberger's.

John

The way that you've worded this implies perceiving one as worse than the other. I don't know if my interpretation here is correct, but I strongly disagree with that concept.

[Seb]

I think there is a lot to the original statement, if kids were allowed to experiment and just be themselves there would be a lot less going to the extremes (like gender alignment surgery and hormonal blockers).

I know it would have helped me, if it was seen as acceptable to go wear a dress or skirt as a kid/teen. I never thought I was a girl/woman nor considered the possibility of changing back then. In fact the only thing I had heard about trans/crossdressing was the horror stories of men being drugged by Thai ladyboys and the over the top drag-scene, and I most certainly didn't relate to either of those. I thought I might be bi for a moment and maybe that could explain my love for female garments, but after kissing a boy after a few to many beers, I could safely rule that out.

As for being on the autism spectrum, I don't have a formal diagnosis, but I've probably got a hefty dash of both autism and adhd. If I ever have to go see a shrink, they will probably have the diagnosis stamped before I leave the room.

[Barleymower]

I think there is a lot to the original statement, if kids were allowed to experiment and just be themselves there would be a lot less going to the extremes (like gender alignment surgery and hormonal blockers).

I know it would have helped me, if it was seen as acceptable to go wear a dress or skirt as a kid/teen. I never thought I was a girl/woman nor considered the possibility of changing back then. In fact the only thing I had heard about trans/crossdressing was the horror stories of men being drugged by Thai ladyboys and the over the top drag-scene, and I most certainly didn't relate to either of those. I thought I might be bi for a moment and maybe that could explain my love for female garments, but after kissing a boy after a few to many beers, I could safely rule that out.

As for being on the autism spectrum, I don't have a formal diagnosis, but I've probably got a hefty dash of both autism and adhd. If I ever have to go see a shrink, they will probably have the diagnosis stamped before I leave the room.

One thing I think is not done and should be done and it is this: kids should be able to wear what they want. It should be done within the home and outside of the house. The parents should allow this to happen and stand in between them and the outside world who might criticise them. This is what girls get and boys should be given the same.
I have an autistic son, he's diagnosed with ECHP. So there's probably some autism in me. I know I could not make eye contact with people as a child - if that says anything.
I have never kissed another guy, never have, never will.

There is a lot of criticism of men with fetish or AGP behaviours and people are revolted by it. They forget that men are not allowed to develop naturally. They are forced to conform to a image of what they had to conform too or they want a man to be. It leads a a lot of pent up unresolved feelings that could easily be resolved with freedom and compassion.

Freedom to wear what you want is not that much of an ask.

[STEVIE]

Freedom to wear what you want is not that much of an ask.

Wow BM, what a question!
Of course the answer is, yes dear of course you may.
Just as long you wear what's appropriate and normal and doesn't embarrass me etc etc etc.
Take all the freedom that you wish!
Steve

[Barleymower]

Freedom to wear what you want is not that much of an ask.

Wow BM, what a question!
Of course the answer is, yes dear of course you may.
Just as long you wear what's appropriate and normal and doesn't embarrass me etc etc etc.
Take all the freedom that you wish!
Steve

Thanks Stevie
Of course that comes with no conditions other being appropriate and does not embarrass anyone.
I laughed when I read a mumsnest post about a boy who wanted to wear a skirt to school and the replies came back with rules, appropriateness, bullying etc. All dressed up as being helpful. The underlying message being "no he can't have our skirts".

[crfriend]

Take all the freedom that you wish!

Or none at all. Because as a man, that's what you'll find you get. Every. Time.