Theory of Negativity.

[STEVIE]

Positive responses only please!
Pessimists and apparent nay-sayers will not be welcome.
I really do not understand why there appears to be a demand for outright gung-ho optimism in so much of our lives today.
We are seeing it in the cafe but it actually is pervading wider society.
Why?
Let's stick to topic, men's fashion freedom and why it doesn't become mainstream.
I'd say lack of demand, therefore no money behind it, therefore the main retailers are not remotely interested.
Negative pessimism, yes of course, but denying it does not alter the fact one iota.
It's the truth and it's a damnably hard bitter pill, but still the truth.
Instead of being afraid of it and denying, we should confront it and do our level best to see it changing.
Any comment or contribution of any kind would be most welcome.
Steve.

[Barleymower]

Having spent 50 years conforming to the expectations of society and giving up any dreams of non-conformity, I feel qualified to provide the view of those who conform.

Essentially there is constant pressure on men to be men as the world expects them. I can paraphrase a youtuber "shoe on head" who said men do all the difficult jobs, take out the trash, go to war and die and wear boring clothes. She was very glad not to be a man and not have all those expections on her and wearing boring clothes to boot.

The expectations on men are reinforced from birth, no nice clothes and "you're a boy" so stop crying like a girl. These expectations are instilled by the family patriarc. In my case it was my mum "Do you want to be a girl?" My mum said, my sister smirking in the background, my dad looking bemused. So I conformed. What would have happened if I didn't conform? Who knows? I'm not speculating.

So from my perspective that's why men conform. Because of they don't they think they will get laughed at, the won't get a girlfriend and they will get ostracised. People will go to great lengths not to be ostracised.

What can we do? Certain activities I keep separate and Im not about to change. I don't show up to work in a skirt. Otherwise I go for it and if somebody at work said they had seen me I would confront them on equality. Then continue wearing trousers at work. Outside of work I wear what I want. I can't say I have found it easy but I do it anyway.

How do we progress the cause? Meet ups are good. We got some good exposure in waterstones cafe. I spoke to a man on a ferry and he almost broke down there and then he wanted it so badly. He went away muttering 'I will do it'.

Get an idea, do it, fail and try again.

[crfriend]

Get an idea, do it, fail and try again.

Learn from the gaffes, get up, dust yourself off, lick your wounds, and move on with something else. In short, learn from your mistakes -- because we all make them. It's called "gaining experience". Most of all, do not be afraid of failing -- again, because we all do from time to time. Show me someone who has never made a mistake and I'll show you a liar.

There is no such thing as a failed experiment: it can always be used as an example of what not to do next time.

Too, do not worry about asking "stupid questions". They're easier to rebut that stupid mistakes.

[Coder]

Positive responses only please!
Pessimists and apparent nay-sayers will not be welcome.
I really do not understand why there appears to be a demand for outright gung-ho optimism in so much of our lives today.
We are seeing it in the cafe but it actually is pervading wider society.
Why?

My general observation is that as society has progressed, there is less and less tolerance for failure/pain/suffering. Not that pain and suffering are any more noble than, say, leading a life of calm and luxury. But I see this trajectory of "safety" as an almost negative thing when it impinges on our ability to just live life. We are fearful of hurt - and so are ill equipped to take the necessary risks or leave things to chance. I see the "let's not be negative" sort of approach to be akin to this - don't say something negative lest others get discouraged! It's safer to be positive, just as it's safer to add yet another safety regulation to a worksite (whether or not that regulation actually makes things safer, or just the perception of safety). A story I recall being told by an operator of a piece of machinery, that OSHA (in the USA) had mandated some type of guard on it, but that the piece of safety equipment made the device less safe so they took it off. Were they correct? Was OSHA correct? I don't know the truth - but for me it made me start to question a lot of what I see around me.

Let's stick to topic, men's fashion freedom and why it doesn't become mainstream.
I'd say lack of demand, therefore no money behind it, therefore the main retailers are not remotely interested.

So - on a positive note - how do we increase this demand?

[Midas]

So why the lack of demand?

I think there are more men who just haven’t thought about it than there are men who are antagonistic towards the idea. Then there are those who would like to but are (justifiably) nervous of telling their SO, or whose SO is hostile to their man wearing skirts or dresses.

The second group have the key, as their coming out will encourage the first group. It’s about negotiation. I am a professional (adversarial) negotiator of over 50 years standing and it took me several years to achieve what I wanted. Even then I had the benefit of an intelligent and loving spouse and it wasn’t (isn’t) a straight line. But I persevered and have got most what I wanted.

The hardest part is introducing the topic in the first place; once that is done it is just an incremental process of pushing the boundaries until you can wear what you want all or most of the time.

It’s easier said than done but worth the effort.

[FLbreezy]

I feel like most people live their lives in a very un-curious fashion, once they get past the toddler stage of always asking "why?" they stop. Do they wonder enough about why we wear the clothes we wear, or even why we wear clothes at all? With enough curiosity to even experiment or research it? You don't escape the mundane box if you never question why the box is there to begin with and just accept "that's the way things are".

[crfriend]

I feel like most people live their lives in a very un-curious fashion, once they get past the toddler stage of always asking "why?" they stop.

This is one of the major tragedies of "growing up" -- we lose our innate curiosity about the world around us and why it works. And, sadly, we become automatons that are non-curious about things and just blindly accept the status-quo. We need to do better -- as a species!

So, no, nobody bothers to ask the childhood question that sums up one whacking great double-standard -- why are boys and girls treated so differently? And worse, "Why do boys inevitably get the shaft in that?"

[Modoc]

So, no, nobody bothers to ask the childhood question that sums up one whacking great double-standard -- why are boys and girls treated so differently? And worse, "Why do boys inevitably get the shaft in that?"

I know that millions, if not billions, of females, would soundly disagree with your conclusion. The most non-productive attitude that MIS can take is a male vs. female approach to the situation. Because try as we might we can't deny that our most prominent antagonists are other males, and that men have been the almost singular enforcers of the standards we live by.

[Barleymower]

So, no, nobody bothers to ask the childhood question that sums up one whacking great double-standard -- why are boys and girls treated so differently? And worse, "Why do boys inevitably get the shaft in that?"

I know that millions, if not billions, of females, would soundly disagree with your conclusion. The most non-productive attitude that MIS can take is a male vs. female approach to the situation. Because try as we might we can't deny that our most prominent antagonists are other males, and that men have been the almost singular enforcers of the standards we live by.

They are not the ones to blame. Take an average gender critical feminist, all fired up on the wrongs men do. How old is she?.40? So born in 1985. She's hardly experienced terrible prejudice. She's been reading her history books and listening to other older feminists. Then she takes it out on men who weren't there either. They don't see a young guy trying to work out the situation they are in.
The message being passed down needs to change. We've had four industry revolutions now, it's about time we stopped blaming men and let them have a bit of fun again.

[Modoc]

The message being passed down needs to change. We've had four industry revolutions now, it's about time we stopped blaming men and let them have a bit of fun again.

Once again, I have to take exception, Barleymower. I have been a somewhat unconventional male all of my life and it has always been men that challenged and objected to me being who I am. Females have been much more receptive to me being different than any male has been, even ones that I am or have been close to. Men have a more significant stake in preventing other men from breaking out than women do, by far.

[Barleymower]

Once again, I have to take exception, Barleymower. I have been a somewhat unconventional male all of my life and it has always been men that challenged and objected to me being who I am. Females have been much more receptive to me being different than any male has been, even ones that I am or have been close to. Men have a more significant stake in preventing other men from breaking out than women do, by far.

Modoc I hear you and i understand why you are saying what you are saying. I spent most of my life trying to be conventional. I know more than most what it's like to reject another man's unconventional behaviour while being an unconventional male (in hiding). I'm not proud of who I was but I'm trying to be a better person. At the time I wasn't vocal about unconventional guys but didn't seek their company either. I kept a low profile. Here's what I think about men's behaviour towards unconventional men:
We are all a bit unconventional under the surface. Women get nice clothes with nice fabrics in 1000s of styles. Why wouldn't anyone man or women not want to try all that lovely stuff? But we can't because it's for girls and we are not girls and we don't want to be girls, do we!
It's my opinion that any boy who dips his hand in the cookie jar of nice clothes will want more. We don't want to live on cookies but it's nice having them in our lives.

Why are men aggressive towards unconventional men? I wasn't aggressive but I can say it's a defense mechanism. Even being seen with unconvential people might make people think you are the same. If I try it where will it stop? What will everyone think of me? Will all my friends stop being my friend etc.

[Modoc]

Why are men aggressive towards unconventional men? I wasn't aggressive but I can say it's a defense mechanism. Even being seen with unconvential people might make people think you are the same. If I try it where will it stop? What will everyone think of me? Will all my friends stop being my friend etc.

Barleymower, I want to thank you for continuing to affirm that men should be able to make changes despite resistance from society, and especially other men. In keeping with Stevie's original post, I don't intend to sound pessimistic at all because I do see some signs of change, however small. I don't know what can be done other than those of us who have broken out continue to be examples to those who would dare to dress as they want despite what others will think. That is the most challenging part and always will be. This site and others like it have been a valuable, encouraging resource to me. I wish I could drive more traffic here but I just don't have that kind of online presence.

[STEVIE]

If I try it where will it stop? What will everyone think of me? Will all my friends stop being my friend etc.

In my case it hasn't and it wont.
Friends, I never lost any, at least not any that mattered and made a whole lot of new ones along the way.
I have finally broken all ties with my sisters and gained a wonderful new chosen family who actually accept me unconditionally.
It has been a rough journey, but I wouldn't change it for the world.
I am actually looking forward to whatever 2025 brings, Happy New Year All!
Steve.

[Susie]

and we're delighted and honoured you chose us.

[Barleymower]

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