What makes a skirt manly v feminine

[Barleymower]

I was hacked off that we are even debating what makes a skirt masculine or feminine.

Barleymower, you curmudgeonly old party pooping spoilsport.
This thread, is a mere 7 years old, and the human race hasn't settled on an answer in three thousand, so give the recently conscious a chance to wake up and catch that rich aroma of coffee.
Personally, I'm more than a tad hacked off, not surprised though, that a fight for men's fashion freedom is being discussed on this criteria.

BTW, Moon, The Lunar Gods all live on the dark side and just pop round occasionally to mess with the terrain to mess with humans' brains.
I'd bet they have the answer, just go out at something o'clock and sacrifice a cute young virgin Compact of your choice.

Final note, perhaps the ladies among us would care to comment?
Steve.

Thank you Stevie, sanity prevails.
Women started wearing trousers in about 1850, it was normal by 1923.(declared by the attorney general). That's 73 years.
Men starting wearing skirts again in 1960 so based on women's progress, skirt wearing should be normalised by 2033.
Until then if you want a masculine skirt get a kilt, sporran and a set of bagpipes.

[Chip]

The real answer has to be nothing, in my opinion anyway.
If we can accept that items of clothing cannot be assigned gender, logically a skirt or dress should not be deemed masculine or feminine.
Ok, that's a naively simplistic solution, tongue in cheek too, but at bottom line, the truth.
Fashion freedom for men will never be achieved if all men do is fret over the creation of male versions of female design, it simply won't work.
Taking a leaf from the way that women's fashion has broadly evolved, the ladies took clothes, and made them their own, period.
That's not to say that it was without a hell of a struggle nor that it's complete either.
I also believe that very very few humans have the absolute freedom to choose absolutely, how they clothe their own bodies.

While I believe that clothing technically has no gender, garments and style will be gendered in the eyes of most. I don't think masculinity needs to be assigned to gender. It's rooted to the male sex but anyone can have a masculine style or energy.

If women can take pants and make them more sleek and fitted, men can take skirts and make them more rugged and functional. But I do hope that once more men feel comfortable in skirts (ie. masculine skirts), they venture into "feminine" skirts and style, if they find they enjoy it.

And yes I agree that it's a privilege to have freedom of choice for our wardrobes, whether it's related to choices, finances, partner /family support, or safety.

[Chip]

Jordan

That is an interesting piece of work and I think what you are doing is great. My only problem is that the more I read, the more I didn’t want to follow the rules you were suggesting. The mapping showing the blue lengths to buy your skirts, started my brain searching for skirts in the white length section. I know I am not a good rule follower, but having escaped the man drab box, I want a rule free dressing vibe.
You are correct in that when I dress for work, I tone everything down with skirts in the blue section. But play Mouse, as you can see in my pics pages, is largely free to dress as I please, taking inspiration from many sources.

Thanks for reading. I wouldn't say you're the target audience for the article, aside from certain situations like work, maybe. The content, including the 'masculine lengths' diagram are really meant for those who haven't truly gotten into skirts yet. They lack a bridge from their current style, to typical skirt outfits they might see. It's also for anyone who has settled on a masculine style.

And I think when someone gets into skirts for the first time, it's difficult not to get into the more fun or 'feminine' styles.

[Chip]

The length thing is interesting. I have two black denim skirts, one just above the knee and one definitely mini; but judging from my selfies, the shorter one looks *less* feminine to my eyes, I think because the silhouette then resembles shorts, whereas the longer one is quite plainly unbifurcated all the way down.

The 'masculine lengths' are definitely up for debate! They are meant to be based on averages, without considering other factors which can have a big impact. I think as we get more options, examples, and men wearing 'masculine' miniskirts (ie. black denim), the mini length could overtake the kilt length as the most masculine.

[Chip]

To my eye the absolute length of a skirt is less important than how it visually balances with the torso. For example, it often works to my eye when an A-line skirt has the same width at the hem as the width of the wearers' shoulders. This works for things from above the knee to floor length in my opinion.

Not sure if that was you who commented on the article, but these are excellent points. It seems to create a vertical 'bowtie' effect that accentuates the shoulders. Might even work with mini too.

[Chip]

Stevie is right in this. We need to abandon the old thinking altogether and craft something new. If we don't, we're going to find ourselves in the same old gulag as we were before -- and I don't think that's what anybody wants or needs.

Let's instead strike out on the vastly more daring course of discovering what looks good (objectively, from photographs [0], and subjectivey, "what makes us feel good") and work from there. I rock lengths from mini to floor-sweeper; they all look decent, and make me happy -- both "buttons pushed" at once. Sure, some of it is environment-related, but that's perfectly natural. We can do this. If we don't, nobody is going to do it for us. It's up to us. "Help" is NOT on the way.

[0] I use photographs extensively because I've found that mirrors lie. They tell us what we want to see. A photograph tells us what the world around us sees. Try this sometime. Examine yourself in your favourite outfit in the mirror, then expose a photograph and examine that. They will look VERY different (to you).

Totally agree with what you're saying... I know we have to be careful here. I think all approaches are necessary, to move the needle at a decent rate. If most men don't see a 'way in' to skirts because they've labeled them as 'for women', then skirts remain somewhat taboo for men. But if there's a masculine entry point, skirts fall out of the 'women only' bucket, and that's when we have a tipping point of men trying more types of skirts.

I love your photograph tip. You wouldn't think a mirror would change things too much but it can.

[Susie]

I would imagine the waist-to-hip ratio of any design would be the major difference, this being a major difference between male and female bodies.

Otherwise, wear whatever feels comfortable and suits you - would you ask what makes a sock manly or feminine?

[Barleymower]

I would imagine the waist-to-hip ratio of any design would be the major difference, this being a major difference between male and female bodies.

Otherwise, wear whatever feels comfortable and suits you - would you ask what makes a sock manly or feminine?

If the cuff of my socks had a frill and a bow then society would say it's feminine. Men's socks do not entertain such frivolity!

Once the hip to waist ratio increases it seems that options for men's skirts vanish. You are back to to utility kilts etc, fabrics become thicker and stronger. Men (it seems).are not expected to like soft fabric unless a women is wearing it.

Yes, wear whatever is comfortable and suits you. I wish though that we all could get past the confused looks, some smirks and the occasional name calling. If we want things to change then we have to be brave enough to go out there and challenge the norm.

[STEVIE]

If the cuff of my socks had a frill and a bow then society would say it's feminine. Men's socks do not entertain such frivolity!

My socks all come from across the aisle BM, not a bow or a frill to be seen.
Quite frankly, if it took my fancy, I could do frills and bows too.
In the 70s, I wore fluorescent Slade sox, nobody could ever say they didn't see them.
On a wider note, always remember that even when someone jeers or criticises, there is a created conversation.
Those conversations may just be the catalyst for men in skirts to move forward, who knows?
Steve.

[robehickman]

The real answer has to be nothing, in my opinion anyway.
If we can accept that items of clothing cannot be assigned gender, logically a skirt or dress should not be deemed masculine or feminine.
Ok, that's a naively simplistic solution, tongue in cheek too, but at bottom line, the truth.
Fashion freedom for men will never be achieved if all men do is fret over the creation of male versions of female design, it simply won't work.
Taking a leaf from the way that women's fashion has broadly evolved, the ladies took clothes, and made them their own, period.
That's not to say that it was without a hell of a struggle nor that it's complete either.
I also believe that very very few humans have the absolute freedom to choose absolutely, how they clothe their own bodies.

While I believe that clothing technically has no gender, garments and style will be gendered in the eyes of most. I don't think masculinity needs to be assigned to gender. It's rooted to the male sex but anyone can have a masculine style or energy.

Cloth has no gender, but garments are designed to fit a given body shape and the way that ready to wear fashion currently addresses this is through designing for an average 'male' and 'female' body type and selling garments as such. There are women with more male body proportions, and males with more female body proportions, which aren't addressed at all by the fashion industry as far as I'm aware.

However men's and woman's bodies have average differences in shape, and women have body features men do not. Women can freely wear men's clothing without it looking weird, as menswear usually has straight proportions and its easy to hang something straight over typical female curves as it just obscures the curves.

Men wearing clothes designed for women often looks really odd, because the garments tend to be designed to emphasize body features that most men do not have, particularly breasts, and glaring fit issues are very common due to proportional differences (possibly they aren't so obvious to many people given how few people know how to sew and fit clothes nowadays?).

Selling based on body shapes rather than 'man' / 'woman' would be a good place to start, but objective differences in body types and garments being designed to highlight them is a much harder problem to solve as it causes an exponential increase in the number of variation garments need to be manufactured in which becomes intractable - and at some point going back to fitting bespoke to the individual is the only option.

I have been learning how to sew and made a fitted bodice block pattern for myself today, and doing this made me realize just how poor fitting a lot of clothing is. I'm wearing a crude prototype I used to develop the pattern, it looks terrible but is vastly more comfortable than anything I have bought, it almost feels like I have nothing on my upper body.

[robehickman]

To my eye the absolute length of a skirt is less important than how it visually balances with the torso. For example, it often works to my eye when an A-line skirt has the same width at the hem as the width of the wearers' shoulders. This works for things from above the knee to floor length in my opinion.

Not sure if that was you who commented on the article, but these are excellent points. It seems to create a vertical 'bowtie' effect that accentuates the shoulders. Might even work with mini too.

Hi Jordan, yes it was me that commented on your article and agree with your reply comment. I shared my general thoughts on this subject here: https://robehickman.com/skirt-silhouettes-men

That really needs to be expanded to account for different body types though - there is a lot of variation in what men can be shaped like, and some do lean more towards a stereotypical 'female' shape, but you'd never notice with how boxy and rigid most men's clothing is.

I replied to your reply on your blog.

[familyman34]

To my eye the absolute length of a skirt is less important than how it visually balances with the torso. For example, it often works to my eye when an A-line skirt has the same width at the hem as the width of the wearers' shoulders. This works for things from above the knee to floor length in my opinion.

Not sure if that was you who commented on the article, but these are excellent points. It seems to create a vertical 'bowtie' effect that accentuates the shoulders. Might even work with mini too.

Yesterday I spent the whole morning walking about through the main shopping area of my local city, wearing a skirt that apparently did not draw critical views or verbal comments, and the skirt in question would seem to go against Rob's guidelines above.

It is in a soft fine corduroy fabric, mid-brown in colour, and roughly half-circle in shape. Originally it was of a below-the-knees length, but I have shortened it to 21"/53cm at the front and 22"/56cm at the rear by cutting off the excess fabric (about 5"/13cm to 6"/15cm) and rehemming it. The waist remains unchanged at a fairly loose 37.5"/95cm.The original length along the hem was 144"/366cm, now reduced to 124"/315cm.

This certainly is way outside Rob's suggested proportions; I am 72"/183cm tall, with my natural waist approximately half-way between my shoulders and my knees.

Rob's suggested proportions (it often works to my eye when an A-line skirt has the same width at the hem as the width of the wearers' shoulders) would require me to have an absolutely enormous chest measurement! And yet I don't think that anyone paid me any great attention.

[crfriend]

I think we're fretting a bit too much about "masculine" vs. "feminine" skirts. Face it, when a guy wears a skirt of any kind he's going to get looked as as if he's effeminate by the general pubic. Thus, I don't think it's necessarily any use worrying about it -- focus, instead, on style, carriage, and behaviour. Those will get you farther.

[robehickman]

To my eye the absolute length of a skirt is less important than how it visually balances with the torso. For example, it often works to my eye when an A-line skirt has the same width at the hem as the width of the wearers' shoulders. This works for things from above the knee to floor length in my opinion.

Not sure if that was you who commented on the article, but these are excellent points. It seems to create a vertical 'bowtie' effect that accentuates the shoulders. Might even work with mini too.

Rob's suggested proportions (it often works to my eye when an A-line skirt has the same width at the hem as the width of the wearers' shoulders) would require me to have an absolutely enormous chest measurement! And yet I don't think that anyone paid me any great attention.

By width of the hem, I'm talking about the visual with of the free-hanging open bottom of the skirt, not the waistband or chest. Also the points I rased are one pattern that I've noticed often looks good on a range of men, not 'this is the only thing that can work period'. There are a range of body types and some styles will work on some and not others.

[Barleymower]

I think we're fretting a bit too much about "masculine" vs. "feminine" skirts. Face it, when a guy wears a skirt of any kind he's going to get looked as as if he's effeminate by the general pubic. Thus, I don't think it's necessarily any use worrying about it -- focus, instead, on style, carriage, and behaviour. Those will get you farther.

Carl I agree there's too much fretting about m/f here.
However I don't necessarily agree that a man will look effeminate. If you put a wrestler like hulk hogan in a dress he is not going to look effeminate. He is going to look like hulk hogan in a dress. Same if you put a beautiful girl in a three piece suit. As soon as you see her face or she moves, you would know.
What I mean to say is this: we cannot hide who we are. We will only look effeminate in a skirt or a dress if we are effeminate.
Question remains, what do people see when they see a man in a skirt or dress. Here are my thoughts:
1. If you look stylish like (say) freedomforall, you will look like a stylish man in a dress.
2. Bigots will see a weirdo
3. The unenlightened see gay or trans

There's nothing we can do about bigots and ignoramus in the short term. So dress well, be yourself and be happy that you have the guts where most men have none.