Assault of person in dress

[rivegauche]

There are press reports today of an RAF man who assaulted a woman at an army ball because he thought she was a man (or a geezer) in a ballgown. He grabbed her breast. I was interested to hear that the judgement made it clear that anyone had the right to wear a ballgown to a ball if they wanted - gender was not specified. Even the culprit admitted he was completely out of order.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/ra ... r-AA1sf0QO

The penalty was fairly severe so with a bit of luck it will discourage any other drunken louts from doing this sort of thing though we who will often be the geezer in the dress don't seem to experience problems like this. We might spare a thought for women who might be perceived as masculine.

[timemeddler]

wrong on many different levels.

[crfriend]

The penalty was fairly severe so with a bit of luck it will discourage any other drunken louts from doing this sort of thing though we who will often be the geezer in the dress don't seem to experience problems like this. We might spare a thought for women who might be perceived as masculine.

Good. Any damned fool should know better than to grope somebody else. Full stop.

As far as "madly masculine" women go, I just avoid 'em. Not attracted, not interested. Sure, I'll be polite, but I've been reasonably well socialised over the years.

[JohnH]

I think the compensation and fine were on the light side. I think each of them should have been about £5,000 or more.

My experience is since being on estrogen, I am treated with the utmost respect when I wear dresses. Some men even go out of their way to help me.

John

[Dust]

My experience is since being on estrogen, I am treated with the utmost respect when I wear dresses. Some men even go out of their way to help me.

Boys are taught (or at least used to be) to go out their way to help women, even when they don't need it.

I once had the experience of being berated by a woman for holding the door for her. Angry feminist tirade. I could have easily stopped doing the little things like holding the door afterwards. Instead, I started making a point of holding it for everyone, but especially other guys.

[JohnH]

I can be all dolled up in a dress, makeup, heels, etc. but I will hold the door open for a lady who might be wearing trousers and sneakers. That's what a gentleman, which I am, does.

John

[phathack]

My experience is since being on estrogen, I am treated with the utmost respect when I wear dresses. Some men even go out of their way to help me.

Boys are taught (or at least used to be) to go out their way to help women, even when they don't need it.

I once had the experience of being berated by a woman for holding the door for her. Angry feminist tirade. I could have easily stopped doing the little things like holding the door afterwards. Instead, I started making a point of holding it for everyone, but especially other guys.

Many men no longer will lift a finger to help a woman they do not know. Far too many of these helpful men have had assault charges filed against them for helping a woman by changing a flat tire on her car or something equal to that.

[JohnH]

As far as "madly masculine" women go, I just avoid 'em. Not attracted, not interested. Sure, I'll be polite, but I've been reasonably well socialised over the years.

I'm definitely interested in women. But why should I be I be interested in "madly masculine" women when I'm not "madly masculine" ?

John

[denimini]

Good to hear about repercussions for groping another person.
On the drifted subject on courtesy; I hold the door for anyone and have never been abused for it. Recently at a hardware store, I had a young lady carry a large bag of plaster out to the car for me. She didn't ask and I didn't object as I didn't want to spend the rest of the day with white powder on my clothes.

[Stu]

I have a number of thoughts on this case - very mixed. The assailant in this case was clearly drunk (no excuse, obviously). However, if he is being truthful, he thought his unfortunate victim was a fellow soldier in drag, possibly as a prank, and that was disrespectful. So far as he was concerned, he wasn't groping a real woman nor even a male who had just chosen to wear a dress, but rather someone who was deliberately insulting his unit and colleagues. Absolutely no justification for what he did, but the context is relevant.

Another thought occurred to me and that relates to trans women and toilets. I have heard many times that it's always easy to tell if someone is male regardless of how they are dressed and this justifies expelling "men using women's toilets" etc. I was already aware that there are some women who could easily be mistaken for men and this case confirms that. This shows up the problem with the vociferous lobby harping on about "men in women's spaces". How are we supposed to be able to tell? Must unfeminine women now walk around with a certificate signed by a geneticist to prove they are actually female?

[Seb]

A lot of places here are un-gendering their toilets, which I feel is the right way to go anyhow. (If they would just please keep a small urinal-room when you do this for those that prefer).

Assaulting someone is never okay, there are no excuses - though it can be understandable why someone would act out in certain cases, I don't believe this is one of them.

[rivegauche]

I think you have to be very careful making assumptions about someone's gender if there is a suspicion that they are not the gender they are presenting. I was once in a room with a man wearing a maxi skirt and I gradually realised it was a very masculine looking woman. I hadn't done or said anything and either way there would have been no problem.

I have a colleague who had a male friend who was a bit effeminate. One evening he was in a bar in the city and there was his friend completely dressed as a woman. The man started to tease the man in the dress in a way that really wasn't acceptable. It then transpired it was in fact this man's sister (quite genuinely) and the man doing the teasing looked a prat. Well, he was a prat.

So if the gender police start monitoring the toilets they could end up with some very red faces themselves and in these litigious times they could well be sued. I tend to look at the toilet thing a bit like the race issue. If a man in a dress is using a woman's toilet to do what you do in a toilet, he is not a threat. He is only a threat if he starts behaving in a threatening way. A tiny number of male cross-dressers or transwomen misbehave, as Daily Mail readers will tell you. How can you judge all crossdressers by this tiny number? There are probably still people who are scared of black people. All races commit crimes and singling out black people as a threat on this basis is entirely wrong. The safe spaces toilet crowd are for all practical purposes arguing for apartheit and we all know that is unacceptable.

[timemeddler]

Condoning men using women's bathrooms? Thanks for re-enforcing the stereotypes that prevent men from wearing skirts. I think by the time you need to do that you've passed beyond normalizing skirts/dresses/whatnot for men and moved into the realm of crossdressing.(a few of which still use men's bathrooms).

[Paula Proctor]

Re masculine women and being attacked: have a watch of one of Hannah Gadsby's stand up shows which was on Netflix in the UK. She wears suits and presents as masculine. one of her stories was about how she was talking to a woman at a bus stop. The woman's boyfriend came along and got angry and then realized Hannah is a woman and backed away. For comedy purposes she usually stopped the story three. However, for this stand up show she told the real ending of the story. The man came back and beat her up for being gay. So Hannah being a woman didn't stop him. Sexuality trumps sex it seems when it comes to bigotry.


Re doors: I look behind me and see if anyone is behind me. If there is a person behind me I hold the door. It's good manners, simple as. Women don't do themselves any favours by berating someone for being polite. There are bigger hills to die on.

[phathack]

There are press reports today of an RAF man who assaulted a woman at an army ball because he thought she was a man (or a geezer) in a ballgown. He grabbed her breast. I was interested to hear that the judgement made it clear that anyone had the right to wear a ballgown to a ball if they wanted - gender was not specified. Even the culprit admitted he was completely out of order.
LINK
The penalty was fairly severe so with a bit of luck it will discourage any other drunken louts from doing this sort of thing though we who will often be the geezer in the dress don't seem to experience problems like this. We might spare a thought for women who might be perceived as masculine.

A man would behave himself, that is the actions of a Boy who has yet grow up. It does not matter the sex or gender of the person you dont touch other people without their permission. If he can't behave himself after having a drink then he should stop drinking in public. Since this was an army function I can only assume his commander will have something to say about his actions and he will hopefully learn his lesson.